FS7: "DP decided he wants an F5 instead"

Those folks at the law firm probably found someone on CL to do it for $500 bucks.
I figure even if I had managed to get them close to half my rate, I'd still have the potential to lose even more money if I ended up with a scheduling conflict with one of my regular clients.
C'est la vie.
 
It's an interesting thread.

There are many here who have secured their clients over a period of time by the work they do, and rightly so, but in past projects as producer I was given a price for my idea, to broadcast delivery - this was 1992 - the first price I was pitched was was £52k. At the time that was low (as an international exclusivity) but by the time you hire sound and camera over a 3-months period, it soon drains. Unless you know the funding footprint, do not assume it's a 'budget' job - follow the money.

My first documentary production as producer and director pay came in 1992, from that £52K bought a bottle of Pomento - a bottle of sweet sparkling wine and the hope of more work.

I have just completed the UK CAA PFAW course and granted permissions to fly SUSA drones. Keeping in mind insurances to fly and the cost to be granted permissions - a £2K cost in total (plus the fact I am also a solo glider pilot, and also have a PPL (Private Pilot License), there will be someone doing the same thing without pemissions and without £2 million of third party liabilty - because they can.

Unless you have an established a group of clients with a broader network base to lock them in, you will see:

1. 5D students with a media productions degree doing it for free - because they can - and will. 2. Requests for said gradutes asking you if they could tag along with you on your next project and later starting their own business using your clients at a reduced price - because they can; or 3. Accepting that there are more people out their, given the start-up finance, to do equal to or better than what you do.

Time to accept, we are not special anymore as technology is levelling the playing field.
 
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That is precisely why it is vital that one builds relationships and builds trust, because as more experienced professionals we are not in the same bracket of ability or price as Dave 5D, despite what he is telling them.


Some people would never eat a burger from 5 Guys over a 99p one from McDonalds until you demonstrated that while they may share a name, they are nothing like one another.
 
Real Pros on the producing directing side want to work with pros on the DP and Sound department. They know that these people have to earn what is rightfully theirs, they will defend your rate because they don't want to end up with a guy with a 5D who did a 3 day crash course with the Cine-Blogger de Jour. Overall its easier to work with pros thats the whole secret its easier to achieve great results when everybody knows what they are doing - also its cheaper and faster.
 
icarusfilm said:
Real Pros on the producing directing side want to work with pros on the DP and Sound department. They know that these people have to earn what is rightfully theirs, they will defend your rate because they don't want to end up with a guy with a 5D who did a 3 day crash course with the Cine-Blogger de Jour. Overall its easier to work with pros thats the whole secret its easier to achieve great results when everybody knows what they are doing - also its cheaper and faster.
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Absolutely. But often I am Producing the whole shebang and the first challenge is to educate the client as to why peanuts gets monkeys.
 
abreu-canedo said:
Even though I'm relatively new to the industry, I understand the historical shift. The industry is changing. It's always changing. Entry point is at increasingly lower prices. Delivery contexts are changing. Audiences are changing.

I do think that there is less money to go around, with more people competing for jobs. From a supply/demand stand-point, that puts the client/consumer at an advantage. So their ability and expectations to bargain is at an all time high.

I have students of mine who stil live with their parents and are not worried about making a living or running a business. All they want is experience, and to make connections that could help them grow. Most of their work is not very good yet, but it is very in line with their prices. And their clients are happy. While one may think that this is "messing up the market", I actually think that that is a false conclusion. It actually helps to create a larger market for people starting out in the business, which is good. Some of these clients will grow to demand higher quality a d provide higher budgets, while others will realize they never needed higher quality in the first place. This is good for the overall landscape that there are more lower-tier options. Sadly, this does mean some of us might go out of business for various reasons. But we must remember that that life does not owe us anything. And life is not always fair. Sometimes I feel there is too much priviledged white male entitlement going on.

Sure, it sucks that the good-ok' days of the pre-DSLR world has gone away, but markets and industries change and we must evolve with it. If you want higher end clients, I find that we must invest ourselves in our own content and spec work in order to show that we are capable of being trusted at that higher level. No, this does not mean being exploited by someone else. This should be your project, or a project you believe in, and others you collaborate with should be matching what you bring to the table. The point is not to produce crap. Instead, to create content that tells your desired clients why they should work with you. And if you wait until someone pays you to do that, you might be waiting around for ever. So long story short, as our skills grow in the industry, it is important to produce work that will get us out of that Solo-Op, entry-level madness as quickly as possible. And we must invest in our own upward transition, knowing that the higher up we go, the more the competition focuses on quality.

But of course there are crappy people in our industry that that will want to get as smuch for free as possible. But it is their right to be crappy. It is us who must know who we want to be dealing with and avoid who we don't want to work with. When people approach me like: "how much for a video?", I know that they are not knowledgable about video production and are either new, or just perpetually crappy. Most of the time I don't even reply. The only time I reply is if when I do some research on them, I am able to see that they have something valuable to offer, and that I could help them grow to the tier of work I want to be doing...which is always a gamble. But I do t have the money to gamble often, so I often don't.

Sorry, I dont mean to be antagonistic. It is good to vent and to get out our frustrations. And some seriously funny posts have been made on this thread.
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I agree with nearly every word you've written and I'm not surprised you've been down voted heavily especially in this particular forum. I'm no fan of spec work but spot on with everything else. The 'Bro' culture of thinking you're a cut above for having an expensive camera and glass is over and the natives are restless. To many customers that already has happened a Canon 5D in the hands of a competent filmmaker looks just as good to a lot of customers as what they see on TV and in the cinema.

You can see the pejorative terms and names being doled out to filmmakers using 5Ds. Dave 5D isn't posting on DVXUser day after day week after lamenting the falling day rates and not wanting to get out of bed for less than £600 a day, Dave 5D is out there doing the jobs the privileged don't want to do and in doing so is taking the moving image creation industry into new areas that it has never been before. I know a Dave 5D and he's creating some amazing work and punching well above his weight with ingenious filmmaking creating video documentation for a range of companies and artists.

The dynamic range in video and moving image jobs has increased dramatically and no two jobs in a row are ever the same but we'll have a stab at anything and in doing so has taken into whole new areas of business we never would have thought we'd get into. We never turn work away on price, in fact, we never turn away work unless it's connected with the military or the arms trade. If we're not busy I would rather the money came into my business than went into someone else's and one never knows what other opportunities might arise as a result of an enquiry and I see it as my duty to 'up-sell' our services at every opportunity. I will very often get the client to agree to a series of videos that would've taken the same time to shoot as the one they thought they needed, they pay me more than what they wanted to do but they get much more in return, they're happy, we're happy and then they come back knowing they'll get quality work and pragmatic content creation that helps their business. I'm very happy to give mate's rates to charities I support and even to people being pleasant on the phone or in a meeting. I am always trying to reduce our overheads to be as competitive as possible that's why we bought an FS7 and not an F5 or C300II.

About 3 years ago I predicted Sony would release an F65 level camera for about £5k I have 2 years left on that prediction but what happens when everybody has small cheap F65 level cameras? Well, other areas of content creation that already is a reality, in motion graphic everyone pretty much uses the same software so it's the quality of work that sets artists apart. The camera 'Bros' are going to have to get used to having the talent instead of just owning the right camera.
 
To clarify 'Dave 5D' was referring to students and the like with some gear but no idea. I've made it plain that I feel the differentiator is the experience and skill of the person using the tools and not the tools themselves. That said, it doesn't hurt that I am able to ensure I am not trying to use a knife in a gunfight.

Truth is, I'm not threatened by young up and comers and I welcome them bringing something new and fresh to the table. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call out poor work as being poor when I see it.

When the cheapo F65 comes out its still not going to stop these same people constantly missing focus points as they insist on shooting handheld f1.4 on an 85mm without a follow focus.
 
Years ago there were plenty of people with all the gear and no idea. Now there are few more. Quite a few more. Luckily, there's room for everybody. Embrace it.

There are lots of clients who demand high end quality and a professional attitude. If you're good and you can adapt, you'll find those clients. If you're dogmatic, you're get stuck at the level you are.

Just ignore the clients who don't value what you do.
 
This is it. There's a lot more clients than there used to be. Just get good at what you do and be good to work with and let people know you exist and you'll be fine.
 
Nirv .. dont totally agree.. some camera,s are alot better than others.. and alot of lenses.. I paid alot for a CN7 because I know 100% that I can shoot a documentary better than with primes or cheaper zooms.. or non par focal stills zooms..thats just a fact of having 17 -240mm (with centre crop shooting HD).. 2.8 up to 90mm blah blah ..I dont miss any shots.. I,ve tried the other ways and you just miss shots or dont get as good as they could have been.. and i have been doing it a long time.. of course I expect to be paid more than someone with a DSLR and couple of Samyangs .. thats not Bro or arrogance thats just simple logic.. .. most lawyers /surgeons/dentists charge more than first year grads.... the person is paying for peace of mind.. they have seen your CV.. they have seen your gear.. they pay more to worry less.. there is a danger of dragging the going rate down.. little kids were really good at working in Mills.. still wasn't a good thing though..
 
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Filmmaking is first and foremost a buissnes then a buissnes then a buissnes and lastly an art form. It is to everyone else involved it should be for you too. Because after you did that self financed risky documentary where you worked 20 hour days in a risky enviourment got extremely lucky you didn't get killed and the story hit its marks and opened the door into the buissnes. Great, now what? Do you want to spend the next 30-40 years doing this? It's a profession you need a certain level of income you working conditions that are akin at least to that of a construction worker. It's work.
 
Ben Scott said:
This is it. There's a lot more clients than there used to be. Just get good at what you do and be good to work with and let people know you exist and you'll be fine.
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Yep.

Nirv said:
The 'Bro' culture of thinking you're a cut above for having an expensive camera and glass is over and the natives are restless.
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This is disingenuous. Most people work hard for the equipment they own. They don't own it through entitlement. And good on them for investing their own money in their talent.

Nirv said:
To many customers that already has happened a Canon 5D in the hands of a competent filmmaker looks just as good to a lot of customers as what they see on TV and in the cinema.
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Nirv said:
The camera 'Bros' are going to have to get used to having the talent instead of just owning the right camera.
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Again, this is needlessly rude. At the low end, no one will give a monkey's what you shoot on, and if you can show you have talent, you will get work. At higher end you need need talent, professionalism, experience and you need to be able to get the best out of high end professional equipment - whether you own that equipment or not. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but the point is there's a lot more to being a successful professional filmmaker than the camera you own...
 
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