FS7: "DP decided he wants an F5 instead"
- Thread starter JPNola
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Viddovation
Veteran
I want to start with the disclaimer: I'm an American born white male. Born poor (in an American context), but came into enough money in my early twenties from a relative dying to pay off my moderate student loans (state college) and be able to start my business, making more than one costly mistake along the way.
I recognize that despite having no fundamental worth more or less than any other human to have ever lived, and through no choice of my own - I was fortunate enough to have born in the most prosperous time we've ever known, in the most powerful nation of the era, to the most favored gender and skin color. What a statistical fluke! I was also born with minor case of cerebral palsy, and will have a limp for life, and even so, I'd have to assume the conditions I was born into are among the 99% percentile (or better!) for where any one human soul might be born throughout history.
That said...
I do get where you're coming from, and perhaps there are some the statement of white male privilege entitlement would be accurate of (limiting our conversation to the world of falling camera prices, changing videography client landscape). Certainly there are a great number of videographers (myself included) who have almost certainly benefited financially at some time or another from a client's prejudices, perhaps getting work that another - non-white and/or non-male bidder was better qualified for. No contest on that.
Entitlement however... I have the philosophy that "The Universe Doesn't Owe You $#!%". It just doesn't. I think we can discuss a changing business landscape, and even lament unfavorable changes, and reasonably so - without implying that we were entitled to the industry or the world staying constant. We're owed no such thing. But when our fortunes shift, it does behoove us to review where the faults in our business plans are, and what we can and should do to adapt.
Your posts have always struck me as coherent and well thought out. Coming from Brazil, I would think your first language might be Portuguese, and that you've done an admirable job of learning English. I'm slowly teaching myself Spanish, and it is great deal of effort to learn a second language, so I have nothing but respect. In the specific sentence where you bring up white male entitlement your phrasing lends itself to an interpretation that those on this board who are white males have a sense of entitlement their positions in the industry. Perhaps that wasn't your intention. I know that if I was writing this in Spanish I'd likely put things poorly more than once.
That's rich, coming from a lawyer's office. How much to they charge an hour these days?
Clermond
Veteran
my answer in those cases depends on my mood.
- ignore and don't spend time on it (mostly)
- write back, "apologies we only offer professional services which are not available at this budget"
- write back, "I am a little concerned about the rates. Could you tell me what I will get from your boss at a budget of 100-300$?" (I never do this but I always feel tempted)
Clermond
Veteran
that's absolutely right!
These people won't mention their part of the story but will tell everybody that you are ignorant and arrogant.
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
Hey, not to belabor my situation on this thread, just wanted to give one last attempt at clarification, since I obviously have offended some people who felt I may have been talking about them personally or saying that all members of this forum are entitled white men. I was not trying to accuse anyone of holding back younger generations, nor did I mean to accuse anyone of not deserving to be where they are in life.
My comments were not towards anyone specific, nor at the members of this forum in specific. I know that I used divisive and polemic language and my goal was not to stifle the conversation. Nor was it to acuse anyone. If you feel wrongly accused, or that you don't fall into the category of entitled white men, then that's great and I hope you realize I was not aiming to take anything away from you. Nor did I want to make people feel like they had to defend themselves or feel negativity.
at the same time, I do appreciate the honest and thoughtful remarks made as a result. So thanks to everyone who responded, and thanks to everyone who just kept it moving, too
I was not trying to attack white men, nor was I trying to make people feel guilty for having had any advantages in this world. Growing up in good conditions is not something to be ashamed of. It's something to be proud of, and I wish it for for everyone in this world.
It is probably a bad idea to try to reiterate my position, but I'll give it one last shot. My position can sound a bit raw an perhaps it's even wrong. After all, I'm not perfect and still have a lot to learn. But I just meant that even if we are the best in our field and we do the most work and we are the nicest person, life still doesn't owe any of us the rewards we think we may be entitled to for our efforts. I mean this in the macro scale. Of course, if you have an agreement with someone to be paid a certain amount for a job, they should pay you. And if you can afford it, there are legal recourses to employ if the other party breaches your contract. But that is more on a micro scale. What I meant was a broader philosophical disposition about how we as humans, me included, feel that it is unfair that our industry is changing in ways that devalue us. And while I don't think it is good, I also don't think that life owes us anything ever. On a personal level I want the most talented and hardest working person to reap the rewards for their efforts. But life can be cruel. And none of us are "entitled" to be in business, or "entitled" to get paid well. None of us are owed anything in this life. And it should be considered a mirae that any of us can feed our families off of this endeavor and we should value it as such: a miracle. Heck, even that there is life on this earth can be considered a miracle. The odds are so small! That is where the entitled part of my previous rant was trying to address. But perhaps there is something lost in translation there, and perhaps I've been using this word in English incorrectly. My reference for it is precisely the "entitled white males" in various experiences that claim they "deserve" something and throw tantrums when they feel like they are not given what they feel they "deserve". Again, please, if you read this and think I'm trying to acuse you personally, or anyone on this forum, please believe me when I say I'm not. This is just a generalization. And it's not just white men, either. We can all get caught up in our own sense of self worth, and ego, and also just honestly want to be rewarded for our hard work. Even I can be accused of feeling entitled from time to time. And if you've never experienced that in yourself, than you're a much better person than I am.
There re is no doubt that our society is dominated by white men. And the numbers and statistics show that women make less than their male counterparts. In addition, minorities have historically had bigger obstacles to overcome in our historically Eurocentric half-millennium. Again, I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone, nor am I trying to say that if you're a white male, you are evil and entitled. Not at all. I just wanted to be honest with the way our society is systematically structured. But that is almost besides the point. And also, it was only one sentence in a much larger post and was not the focus of the point I was trying to make. Also, many white men are also disadvantaged in other ways, as have been brought up in this thread. None of my statements exist without contradiction or should hold true in all instances. They only attempt to describe the instances that make them true, not all instances.
If if you are sensible at all, you probably stopped reading this post a while ago
But in case you're still reading, I do appreciate that it is productive to talk about changes in our industry, and it's ok to lament negative outcomes of those changes. And it's productive to assess and have discourse about potential strategies to maintain our livelihoods. I was attempting to contribute to such a conversation, but perhaps I came across as trying to stifle the conversation. Please, keep up the conversation. As I mentioned, this has been an interesting thread.
Also, I value this community and I understand that when we are in front of our screens reading this forum, it can seem like things are beeing directed directly to us. So I get that. And I also get that it's easy to read the "dirty" version in posts. Or to interpret things written on a forum in the negative way. I do this too. But I will try to, as much as I can, interpret things on this forum in the most positive way that I can, giving everyone the benefit of a doubt, even if that takes a bit of effort in my part.
My comments were not towards anyone specific, nor at the members of this forum in specific. I know that I used divisive and polemic language and my goal was not to stifle the conversation. Nor was it to acuse anyone. If you feel wrongly accused, or that you don't fall into the category of entitled white men, then that's great and I hope you realize I was not aiming to take anything away from you. Nor did I want to make people feel like they had to defend themselves or feel negativity.
at the same time, I do appreciate the honest and thoughtful remarks made as a result. So thanks to everyone who responded, and thanks to everyone who just kept it moving, too
I was not trying to attack white men, nor was I trying to make people feel guilty for having had any advantages in this world. Growing up in good conditions is not something to be ashamed of. It's something to be proud of, and I wish it for for everyone in this world.
It is probably a bad idea to try to reiterate my position, but I'll give it one last shot. My position can sound a bit raw an perhaps it's even wrong. After all, I'm not perfect and still have a lot to learn. But I just meant that even if we are the best in our field and we do the most work and we are the nicest person, life still doesn't owe any of us the rewards we think we may be entitled to for our efforts. I mean this in the macro scale. Of course, if you have an agreement with someone to be paid a certain amount for a job, they should pay you. And if you can afford it, there are legal recourses to employ if the other party breaches your contract. But that is more on a micro scale. What I meant was a broader philosophical disposition about how we as humans, me included, feel that it is unfair that our industry is changing in ways that devalue us. And while I don't think it is good, I also don't think that life owes us anything ever. On a personal level I want the most talented and hardest working person to reap the rewards for their efforts. But life can be cruel. And none of us are "entitled" to be in business, or "entitled" to get paid well. None of us are owed anything in this life. And it should be considered a mirae that any of us can feed our families off of this endeavor and we should value it as such: a miracle. Heck, even that there is life on this earth can be considered a miracle. The odds are so small! That is where the entitled part of my previous rant was trying to address. But perhaps there is something lost in translation there, and perhaps I've been using this word in English incorrectly. My reference for it is precisely the "entitled white males" in various experiences that claim they "deserve" something and throw tantrums when they feel like they are not given what they feel they "deserve". Again, please, if you read this and think I'm trying to acuse you personally, or anyone on this forum, please believe me when I say I'm not. This is just a generalization. And it's not just white men, either. We can all get caught up in our own sense of self worth, and ego, and also just honestly want to be rewarded for our hard work. Even I can be accused of feeling entitled from time to time. And if you've never experienced that in yourself, than you're a much better person than I am.
There re is no doubt that our society is dominated by white men. And the numbers and statistics show that women make less than their male counterparts. In addition, minorities have historically had bigger obstacles to overcome in our historically Eurocentric half-millennium. Again, I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone, nor am I trying to say that if you're a white male, you are evil and entitled. Not at all. I just wanted to be honest with the way our society is systematically structured. But that is almost besides the point. And also, it was only one sentence in a much larger post and was not the focus of the point I was trying to make. Also, many white men are also disadvantaged in other ways, as have been brought up in this thread. None of my statements exist without contradiction or should hold true in all instances. They only attempt to describe the instances that make them true, not all instances.
If if you are sensible at all, you probably stopped reading this post a while ago
But in case you're still reading, I do appreciate that it is productive to talk about changes in our industry, and it's ok to lament negative outcomes of those changes. And it's productive to assess and have discourse about potential strategies to maintain our livelihoods. I was attempting to contribute to such a conversation, but perhaps I came across as trying to stifle the conversation. Please, keep up the conversation. As I mentioned, this has been an interesting thread. Also, I value this community and I understand that when we are in front of our screens reading this forum, it can seem like things are beeing directed directly to us. So I get that. And I also get that it's easy to read the "dirty" version in posts. Or to interpret things written on a forum in the negative way. I do this too. But I will try to, as much as I can, interpret things on this forum in the most positive way that I can, giving everyone the benefit of a doubt, even if that takes a bit of effort in my part.
Viddovation
Veteran
I can heartily concur with you on your latest post. And when we speak in the macro scale - there are most certainly white males and others who have it very well off in this world that beleive they are inherently entitled to their great fortune. While I wouldn't apply that to anyone in my circles, I would think it must certainly occur in our industry. So in the big picture sense, I'm there with you. We should all have more appreciation for what we do have in life, and work for the things that matter, and do productive things to change our situation, and not just be angry at the universe when we don't get what we want.
I think the only particularly unfortunate thing about your original post was it lent the impression that you felt that some on this very dvx thread were being entitled in the present discussion of the state of the industry. Perhaps that is true, although it's not where my comments were coming from, and I didn't sense that from anyone else here. I think that's the implication that ruffled feathers.
I appreciate the clarification that you were speaking more broadly, of others in the industry, not those specifically in this thread. And in that broader sense, I agree with you.
Ben Scott
Veteran
Well la-di-da Mr Fancy Pants with your good personal hygiene making the rest of us look bad.
Ben Scott
Veteran
Just say you're happy to talk about the project and you'll give them a quote with some options but don't mention the money they said. If they reiterate it say that doesn't even cover canera hire for 1 day, let alone talent and post.
tell them how people appear on screen says a lot about their values to the audience and that it is better to have no video than have a poor one, which can be actively damaging.
Ben Scott
Veteran
Just to say, as a honky from a predominantly minority area my journey to today has been a twisty turns one with lots of peaks and troughs. Everyone has a story. Was discussing this with a pal last week and while I feel I have scrapped and fought for every bit of success I have ever had, there's no denying it that it would have been even more of a challenge if I had been non white or a woman. Or a non white woman.
I should state though that I have never worked with a single person who I felt would overlook someone for a position in production based on race or gender. Funnily enough I was taken under the wing at the start of my career by a foul mouthed talented female Director and a black gay Producer who both believed in me and gave me my first production gigs.
I should state though that I have never worked with a single person who I felt would overlook someone for a position in production based on race or gender. Funnily enough I was taken under the wing at the start of my career by a foul mouthed talented female Director and a black gay Producer who both believed in me and gave me my first production gigs.
icarusfilm
Veteran
I don't feel that after a coup of decades of experience and a lifelong commitment to constant learning and improvement coupled with reliability stamina and follow through in the most adverse situation I need to explain why I expect to make more than minimum wage. I have no problem telling someone I can eat for breakfast and s__t out before lunch where to to stick it.
JPNola
Veteran
I'm still more than good with Rafael. How about the rest of you?
Absolutely good with Rafael. I've worked with plenty of "entitled" folks. It was always their attitude that pissed me off - nothing to do with race or gender.
And honestly - it's always been the real talented folks who don't have that disposition. Makes you wonder if perhaps having that perception of entitlement is caused by a lack of something else??
And honestly - it's always been the real talented folks who don't have that disposition. Makes you wonder if perhaps having that perception of entitlement is caused by a lack of something else??
This is exemplified in a clear pattern as shown on the show American Idol. The early years of this show showed the auditions of the very untalented along with the talented. Time after time, the ones with no talent were boisterous, obnoxious, and had high opinions of their talents while the talented ones were modest and humble.
That last part is a good one, dont really agree with the first part. My experience is that when people are that far off the mark trying to talk to them about a project and fees etc. is a waste of time. What I really want to do is just delete the email and not respond but knowing how it feels to be on the other end of someone not even acknowledging your existence I feel the right thing to do, and the very least I can do, is briefly let them know I got their message and can't help them.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Why would you do that? The whole point is that your time is valuable, so why would you waste it - and there's as well - discussing things if there is no way this can work out?
The first thing I would do is respond with something like, "Without further details, what you describe sounds like a job that would normally cost at least $5000 - $10,000. I appreciate that you may not know what goes into such costs and what I would provide, so if you would like to discuss further I would be happy to explain what I would provide to deliver a professional product that would fulfill what you describe in your email." It's polite and let's them know that you are a pro who delivers pro-level product at appropriate rates. Their response will either be "I'm sorry, but I can't afford that" or "I didn't realize it would cost so much. I do need to do make this video. Can we discuss what can be done?" and then that would lead to a conversation that is worth bother to have for both parties.
It's always best to be open and honest right upfront. Your time is valuable and so is theirs. Your years of skill & craft is not just measured by when you are standing there with a camera in hand. The knowledge that you bring to a conversation such as this is of equal if not greater value. Don't devalue your worth.
Ben Scott
Veteran
Well yes, that's what I'd do too, but I was on a quick break on a hot day and passing time so wrote the short version which may not have explained that properly.
I'd always explain what stuff actually costs even if it's just for their info for down the line. I think it is very important for people to know that production value A = cost X.
I just had a client ask if I could do something in a similar style to a certain advert he saw for £5k and when we broke down the things he liked about it I had to explain that he'd have to spend £20,000 before we even hit post. The upshot is we might be doing something in the middle, and with a bit more originality.
As for my time, I have standard emails for this sort of thing giving very rough ballparks for various types of job.
I'd always explain what stuff actually costs even if it's just for their info for down the line. I think it is very important for people to know that production value A = cost X.
I just had a client ask if I could do something in a similar style to a certain advert he saw for £5k and when we broke down the things he liked about it I had to explain that he'd have to spend £20,000 before we even hit post. The upshot is we might be doing something in the middle, and with a bit more originality.
As for my time, I have standard emails for this sort of thing giving very rough ballparks for various types of job.