DoF Too Deep?

Isaac,
Thats what a lot of students and newbies don't realize. The effect that overtime has on shooting demands. Even on well funded non-union shoots, the 12 hour day is kind of a golden rule, you go past that and the crew wants to cut your balls off if they don't get compensated. 2nd meal kicks in, that's when a producer gets in big doo doo. 2nd meal, O/T, turn around issues, a later call time - they're sunk! So that's why there's a huge pressure on a DP and his crew to shoot fast and mistakes are made - all just part of it. If a DP or crew isn't fast enough they're often fired.

Just explaining this to readers who might not be aware.
I remember in my student days we'd shoot for 16 hours straight, no pressure. Forget about it in the real world.

Isaac_Brody said:
Producers wanting to cut costs and the pressure of making a twelve hour day. That's going to keep things pretty stressful and put a lot of pressure on the DP to make the day.
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morgan_moore said:
The 5d is a tool no more no less

it does some things well - low light - wide FOVs - and is very very small and light

it is also hard to focus on a tightly framed moving subject

each operator need to find the correct tools and choose when to use them
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Bingo. Again, it's helpful to get a lot of different perspectives, and even more helpful when you can get feedback from people who own and use the camera everyday. It's ironic that the loudest voices clamoring for full frame don't even own 5D's, but hey, nobody's perfect. :cheesy:

I don't have a 5D. From seeing a ton of footage including Kholi and Morgan's clips, both who are knowledgeable shooters it's definitely not easy to pull focus on moving subjects. Morgan, I watched your clip. Not bad for handheld, that didn't look easy.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
From seeing a ton of footage including Kholi and Morgan's clips, both who are knowledgeable shooters it's definitely not easy to pull focus on moving subjects. Morgan, I watched your clip. Not bad for handheld, that didn't look easy.
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I pull focus easily on rap videos at a 2.8 at 200mm... who moves around faster/more than those people
 
Really filiming moving subjects is so so different
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Hi Morgan! I agree, BUT if the moving subjects are within your chosen DOF range, then it's not so different. It's following them at a shallow DOF when they move closer or farther that's tough. Even with still photography it's tough to follow a fast flying bird with a 600mm lens as it comes towards you. If you can get it in the viewfinder and it flies horizontal in a flat plane (not a literal airplane), it's not so tough. If you're shooting a 'still' with lots of depth (rocks in foreground and mountains in background), using a 17mm lens you may go f16 or even f22 to get the depth you need (using 35mm, I know medium format is higher). So even with "moving" things, let's say a deer wandering in the same rock/mountain scene, that deer will remain in focus from the mountains up to your foreground rocks. It's the DOF you chose. If you're shooting that deer with a 600mm fixed lens at f4 and it's running towards you, there's no virtually no way you can keep it in focus with the comp you need with still or moving (well, if you're reeeeally good you might get some in focus shots). It's all about your mm lens choice, the f-stop range, and the DOF you choose. Same applies to still or moving. Things do stay in focus with moving objects if you give them enough DOF. How much depends on how good you are or what look you're going for. That's been my experience.
 
dadoboy said:
Isaac,
Thats what a lot of students and newbies don't realize. The effect that overtime has on shooting demands. Even on well funded non-union shoots, the 12 hour day is kind of a golden rule, you go past that and the crew wants to cut your balls off if they don't get compensated. 2nd meal kicks in, that's when a producer gets in big doo doo. 2nd meal, O/T, turn around issues, a later call time - they're sunk! So that's why there's a huge pressure on a DP and his crew to shoot fast and mistakes are made - all just part of it. If a DP or crew isn't fast enough they're often fired.

Just explaining this to readers who might not be aware.
I remember in my student days we'd shoot for 16 hours straight, no pressure. Forget about it in the real world.
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Sad thing is that it sounds bad, and it's actually a lot worse than it sounds. LoL. At least for me, man. When you're out gunning trying to get shots before magic hour fades and you have to quietly whisper to your DP "I missed focus...", it's just one of those feelings like you suck, but you can't really help it.

Wish every job I had could rent a Bartech and a wifi Monitor for it all, dude. LIfe would be so much more easier.
 
Eric Papa said:
I pull focus easily on rap videos at a 2.8 at 200mm... who moves around faster/more than those people
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This made me laugh SO loud. rofl

Please show me, though. Is this on an MKii?

I'll be DEAD honest with you, I pride myself on being able to pull focus by hand while operating. Ask Matty G about that music video where I operated a RED, pulled focus by hand and worked a dolly with one foot. It's fun for me, but if I see someone pulling Focus @ 2.8 on a 200mm Full Frame without missing I'll post your video in my sig.
 
Ah, it's good work. But I don't think rappers bobbing in place is the same kind of focus challenge as an actor walking all over a room. 5D works well for this type of music video.
 
Kholi said:
This made me laugh SO loud. rofl

Please show me, though. Is this on an MKii?

I'll be DEAD honest with you, I pride myself on being able to pull focus by hand while operating. Ask Matty G about that music video where I operated a RED, pulled focus by hand and worked a dolly with one foot. It's fun for me, but if I see someone pulling Focus @ 2.8 on a 200mm Full Frame without missing I'll post your video in my sig.
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I have something like that too..


I have a behind the scenes video clip where I'm pulling the camera on the dolly track backwards, by the XLR cable connected to a boom mic, while reading an OS characters part in the script, and being on my cell phone too
 
Isaac_Brody said:
Ah, it's good work. But I don't think rappers bobbing in place is the same kind of focus challenge as an actor walking all over a room. 5D works well for this type of music video.
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Unfortunatley this is mostly the only 5D2 work I can post. Most of my 5D2 work is corporate fortune 500 but I cant post it here
 
Eric, I liked your music video a lot. Good stuff.
Most of the shots were wide and the tights where the 200mm might have been used weren't really tracking shots where the actor is changing distances from the camera but rather they stayed on the same plane with perhaps some minor adjustments. Also, most of it was exteriors so probably you didn't have a need to pull at a 2.8.
I don't want to doubt you though. Some people have uncanny abilities to pull focus on their own though I've never met one that didnt buzz a shot.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
Ah, it's good work. But I don't think rappers bobbing in place is the same kind of focus challenge as an actor walking all over a room. 5D works well for this type of music video.
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Right. Were talking about actual subject tracking like Morgan Moore presents in his examples. Which mustve taken an insane amount of practice of course.

It's one of the few examples of proper camera operation and focus pullig i've seen.

Anyway. Gf is giving me the evil eye. Time to go do as I'm told.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
Bingo. Again, it's helpful to get a
I don't have a 5D.....Not bad for handheld.
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More comments from 5d virgins - no disrespect

Its better than "not bad" - for a single op with no IS, AC to FF and no significant mass added to the camera/rig* - might sound arrogant - but the camera is a ***** unless you are on a 28mm at F11

Remember pulling focus is not only hard but the physical act can affect the stability of the shot too and the jello exagerates that instability and of course there is the mechanical stability of the system (lens mounts lens backlash lens barrel wobble etc to consider)

I have not seen better (although there is far better content) - but maybe the sensible ops are steering cleer of such shots with good reason which is fine until your payroll depends on it

another example.. http://www.vimeo.com/5114756 (IS employed)

S

* this is an important but techical point - Im trying to avoid the addition of mass to handheld solutions because if you add mass you are negating the ability to get(cheaply) to those beaches, wild spots and ski slopes that will provide "kinglike content" that the 5d can potentially access - dressing a 5d to red mass has no interest to me
 
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It's ironic that the loudest voices clamoring for full frame don't even own 5D's, but hey, nobody's perfect.
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Do YOU own one? You're pretty opinionated on it for not even shooting full-frame. Got links of your full-frame attempts?

Hmmm. I do own the Canon 5D, have for a couple of years. Unlike most here (including yourself), I have my website posted for all to see. I guess for credibility reasons around here one must "brag" for credibility?

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0602/columns/mono_lake.html Published in National Geographic Adventure.

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/locations/north-america/mcway-falls-big-sur-california.html Outdoor Photographer Magazine

I have calendar covers, book covers, major magazine publications from all over the solar system (primarily focusing on Earth), major greeting card publishers, etc. Walk into Yosemite National Park right now and I have my images on a kazeeeellion products (exclusive contract) on calendars, postcards, puzzles, posters, keychains, fridge magnets, etc. I license images and sell prints and have thankfully been able to do this *almost* full-time (keeps my wife home with the kids... the videography is kicking in to the point where it won't be much longer til I start my wilderness media empire, Lord willin'!, meeewhahahaha!

The loudest people who have been clamoring for full-frame have been what I've seen on these forums ever since I got here, pretty much everyone, what are you tawkin' 'bout? It's been the sought-out Holy Grail for prosumer videographers since day one. And the Canon 5D Mark II hasn't even been out for very long and it's very hard to find in stock. And I did look to see if Best Buy had the Mark II in stock in all the stores within 250 miles of where I live, nada, zilch, zip. I've had my 'notification' list from B&H for weeks for when it comes in stock... it showed in stock on the website earlier today and I ordered it and got an email saying they made a mistake, it's backordered. I know full-frame, I make my living full-frame, and I know what'll be like shooting the Mark II in video mode. I've seen umpteen hours of amazing footage and it looks just like the pics, but moving. Shallow DOF will be tough, very tough, but I shoot mostly wide landscapes and wilderness adventure. But I'll be able to nail some good shallow DOF in the times where it's practical and I'm lovin' the option to do so.

If you don't own a Mark II yourself, Isaac, and you keep saying things like "it's helpful to get a lot of different perspectives" but then you seem to challenge different perspectives, one perspective more than another. It's pretty clear. There are a LOT of Mark II owners who LOVE this camera and say it's changed their entire way of filming, even with shallow DOF options at their fingertips. If someone doesn't like full-frame, fine, no worries, who cares? I like it. Why challenge my arguments for myself? I've pulled focus plenty of times and shot plenty of footage, both fiction and adventure. I love my EX1 and I know it outperforms the Mark II in plenty of areas (audio, over/under crank, aliasing, etc.), but for my shooting style the full frame is best. Maybe not yours. I know the physics behind photography/videography and DOF. As long as a moving object stays within your determined DOF, you're gold. If not, increase it. If not, increase it more. I don't want to go to a smaller sensor, been there, done that. I know my talents, and singing isn't one of them. But I can take a pic.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/buckforester/
 
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Buck

The 5d is the camera for you - you can get in that canoe without lugging an EX1 and a cannon stills rig

You can buy a waterhouseing - you can buy a 500f4

You can afford a spare

you can do an awesome vista pan at sunrise with a 17mm and a ND sky that will destroy any EX1 footage you have

And you can shoot calendar quality stills

Its amazing

But you are still talking pony about the challenges of using it for anything other than locked off shots or simple tripod moves

(Ive also had NG Traveller stuff published and shot more than10,000 clips with the 5d2 and im a really tight shooter because I started out on an FM2 with a broken motordrive)

S
 
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Hey Eric and Morgan, good stuff you linked! dadoboy, thanks for your constructive and reasonable approach, it's rare and refreshing. I can tell you are a true professional (I'm not just blowin' smoke) by your attitude. You have nothing to prove, you're the real deal. The people looking down their noses are the ones who are attempting to hide some sort of defiency, ha!

Hey morgan, what I'm reeeeally looking forward to with the Mark II is being able to easily use my assortment of GND filters to balance light. It's not so easy on my big ole EX1. Plus I have an assortment of L glass I'm itchin' to use! My longest lens is a Canon 400mm 5.6... I historically haven't shot much wildlife. And yes, the little Mark II on my kayak deck will be much easier than my EX1 (and the EX1 is considered pretty small form for 1/2" chips, ha!). I can't wait for this camera to arrive!
 
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