DoF Too Deep?
- Thread starter Dalton Boettcher
- Start date
Yes. Thank you. From a focus puller who knows how hard it is. Perspective...
Criss Angel on a Pogostick. Someone GETS it. I'm just gonna delete my last post and leave it at that.
squig
Veteran
I thought it was a good post, I was gonna give that round to Kholi but the last part was so pro MKII I thought somebody else had written it. :cheesy: Hypothetically speaking if the red didn't exist would you use the MKII or an adapter rig for the money shots that the GH1 isn't quite up to?
Buck Forester
Well-known member
Sure, pulling focus on an uber-shallow DOF with actors who are roaming at will is tough, nigh impossible. If your shots are planned and you know your hyperfocal distances and what the range is for an actor to walk towards or away and stay withing that focal range, you're good. It's not tough, it's just using physics. Everything in your predetermined range will be in focus. Obviously shooting narrow at 1.2 that range is insane and you better know every move that's being made. Who would shoot much at such shallow DOF though, for any length of time or number of clips? Just saying, "give me a smaller sensor" is not a good answer for me (but it may be for you). I've shot stills with a smaller sensored Canon 20D (1.6 crop factor) as well as the Canon 5D (full frame), plus years of 35mm film. When Canon came out with the original 5D full frame I was all over it. I get much more focal range options and full use of my lenses. I certainly "get it", if you're implying no one else gets it unless they agree with you. Ha! It's all good. Fish on.
Ah, it gets me depressed that I'm staring at a monitor rather than on a LCD on top of a camera. This has to be my worst slowest year in LA - everybody pushed their shoots or cancelled. Must be the economy (I hope it aint me).
Nathan Troutman
Active member
Not worked up so don't worry. But I think I can read between the words and see the implication. The perspective of our focus puller is something we all can agree about. I'm not saying you have to shoot a F1.4. But you can shoot at F5.6 right or use a 35mm instead of an 80mm right? You control the amount of focus pulling needed on the 5D just like on any camera.
Actually on film adapters we were trying to pull focus at F1.4 FF because we had no choice because of lighting and looking at the image upside down on top of it. :2vrolijk_08:
The problem with Kholi's opinion is it ignores that DOF is something you control on any camera. So if you're so terrified of being able to pull focus stop down and/or use a wider lens. Problem solved. The notion that you can't use the 5D on a job because of focus is not a fact. It is an opinion wrapped in facts but it is hardly the truth. And sounds more like someone fishing for reasons to kick the 5D :nads: than stating anything that might actually be useful to someone. Like how you CAN pull focus with a 5D, or how you CAN shoot handheld with the 5D, or how you can convert to 24P with the 5D. Instead of endless obscure comments about how it just won't work on a particular job.
I on the other hand am under no illusions about the shortcomings of the 5D, but the image is absolutely worth it every single time. And I say strap it on boys and go shoot with it. You'll learn and you'll shoot and you won't mess everything up. The next time you're going to be better and the image is your reward. You can do it:2vrolijk_08:
Unfortunately, for fun arguments about the 5D DVX is a great place but for real info about the 5D and what it can and can't do DVInfo is a far more constructive. But I am still really hoping to see some of Kholi's 5D footage. And don't worry Isaac I'm not hot or angry. But I disagree with your representation of the post and I made my opinion known.
For those of you who have questions about how to use the 5D or what you might be getting yourself into I suggest:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/
Someone will be happy to help.
Nathan Troutman
Active member
I just had my first son so I'm trying to see this as a good thing because I'm using the downtime to be Mr. Mom. It's why I'm blogging more because shooting has been replaced with bottles, breast milk & diapers.
If only it were that easy. Ever directed actors? They don't hit the mark the same way each time like robots. And you don't want them to do something exactly the same way each time because it would mean a flat performance. And like Dado mentioned, the director who gives his actor free reign to move around makes full frame shooting even more difficult. There's a reason good focus pullers are worth every penny. People make it sound like it's this easy thing to do. I wish it were.
Great. Glad it's working out for you. I don't think it would work out every time on every job. That's just me, and I'm not going to hammer a nail with my shoe even if I know my shoe will eventually put the nail in the wall.
Buck you have to remember than even a 50mm at F2 at say six feet, you only have about six inches of DOF. That's just a wild guess but even a 50mm can can your ass if stuff is soft. It's just not as easy as setting a range for the actor - you have to FOLLOW the actor on the wheel all the time, even if you think you know what they're going to do. I remember on HD pulling focus with a Zeiss 70mm digiprime on a well known actor in a western, from 14 feet away at T1.4, and the guy would lean forward a bit and he'd be out, and then he'd lean back a bit and he'd be out and the director was getting annoyed at this but the guy was jerking around too fast for me to follow. And I felt *HORRIBLE* on top of the fact that it was 101 degree heat and this actor was the kind to throw a hissy fit if he had to do it more than twice.
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squig
Veteran
hehe same here 2 girls
No one is forcing you to be here. If you think this isn't a place for real info then feel free to find another place that you think is more constructive.
"We" pulled focus on FF/Vistavision huh? I forgot you were the SAME guy that stated that 35mm Adapters were built around Vistavision... when the P+S Tech was locked into academy FOV. No, "We" didn't pull focus on 35mm adapters at a vistavision field, Nathan. Quite a number of us used Cinema Primes on a job-to-job basis and were shooting Academy.
I just think you should come to the table with facts and an unbiased POV, less allegiance to a product so that those looking to camera owners with experience to help them decide will find information that they can really use.
In the end, this is a topic about DOF and FOV on Full Frame, I think I contributed a POV that includes real world experience on basing a decision on facts, not money, not emotions.
On the other hand, here's an unedited and unbiased post in this thread from an unexpected party:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1665676&postcount=37
I just think you should come to the table with facts and an unbiased POV, less allegiance to a product so that those looking to camera owners with experience to help them decide will find information that they can really use.
In the end, this is a topic about DOF and FOV on Full Frame, I think I contributed a POV that includes real world experience on basing a decision on facts, not money, not emotions.
On the other hand, here's an unedited and unbiased post in this thread from an unexpected party:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1665676&postcount=37
Nathan, do you own a 5D?
LoL I know it seems like I don't work, but that still was from yesterday. Incidentally, I was on DVXuser on my iPhone while I was composing that same shot, handheld and all. Oh yeah, Dadoboy is right: I don't use follow focuses. I prefer the barrel for immediate feedback.
It's a very bad habit, not just with DVXuser but tech in general, that'll probably ruin me.
I'll be shooting tomorrow again, and probably be doing the same thing.
Squig you did ask what I'd choose if RED wasn't at my disposal, the answer is simple and hard at the same time: the right tool for the job.
There isn't a perfect tool for every job right now, not even RED. When you're on someone else's dollar, as much as you want to experiment, it isn't the right time to do it. Just gotta be certain about your tools for the job. =P
I mean, check Dadoboy's post. They're in talks on whether or not to use the 5D or RED. It is not an easy decision and even I know that. You'd think anyone wit henough money to help a feature on RED would just go RED.
Nooooot so straight forward.
Buck Forester
Well-known member
I haven't directed actors, no, but I've been behind the camera shooting them and 'focusing' on them. And yes, they miss marks, sure, but if it's a consistent problem then you need to increase your DOF to make sure it encompasses a certain range of focus. It's that simple. It's a matter of physics... what 'range' you give your actors the ability to move and you make sure you're in that range. If it's shallow or deep, you adjust. Go a little deeper if you have to. Just shooting a smaller sensor because you can't pull focus doesn't seem like the best option for me, but if it is for someone else, that's fine. No worries.
But "going to a smaller sensor" as the answer to your above equation doesn't seem like a good solution. Why not simply go from 1.2 to 1.8 or 2.8 or deeper (whatever it takes)... if the glass is quality and fast. If full frame was so hard to shoot a flick with, I wonder why it's used in Hollywood so much? Just because an HV20 has more DOF at a given aperture than a RED ONE doesn't make it the camera of choice. You use the added DOF and quality lenses to your advantage, not going backwards to smaller sensors. At least in my thinking.
And we agreed, IF you're using a shallow DOF on a full frame trying to chase actors who are semi-randomly roaming around in various DOF zones. "Free reign" comes at a cost because of the laws of physics... you either increase DOF or you lose a lot of shots. I don't need to mention this, but isn't that why we use multiple cameras per shoot? I've shot flicks where I'm the "up close" camera while another camera or two are getting wider/deeper perspectives, and vice versa. Obviously movies aren't shot from a static perspective, you have cuts from various angles and DOF.
I'd refine that to say, "shallow DOF focus pullers are worth every penny", because anyone can pull focus at f16, pretty much everything is the scene is in focus. It's when you're following a talent that moves through various DOF zones in one take that's difficult. I love pizza.
Kholi, the projects that I'm consider the 5Dmk2 for are only shorts. It's my conservatism, but I would rather go with the more "established" RED or 2/3" HD for indie features. I have no features at all lined up right now which sucks big time financially and overall. Just have to fill in my days with more crew work which is fine.