ALL: Does this look like an Autofocus Bug to You?? -- Video Clip

Firehawk,

I am in the same boat. I hate to be constantly bashing this camera. If I was using total manual operation, I would be ecstatic about this camera. It clearly is great in that regards. But then again, I would have purchased the Af100. I got this for the auto features, like you, to place on crane for my shooting. Same situation, not enough hands for solo work. I did not expect perfect, but I have not had any problems with my Hd Sony that I replaced with the AC160.

Immediately, I noticed the auto focus not being usable at all for this kind of shooting. Meaning, I would not even feel comfortable about using this camera in those situations. I had dreams about all my footage coming out blurry.....Talk about nightmares.

So, believe me when I say rent one first and have a extra set up just to try it out. I wish I had this option before I purchased. Again, for certain usages, this camera rocks! Just not for my intended needs!

The only regret I have is that Panasonic clearly understood my dilemma and acknowledged it, but failed to resolve the matter. I have heard everything from the camera works as designed to there was a bad first batch. Nothing to help me in my needs. So, you clearly have to weight your individual needs. Do you see 18 pages of auto focus issues on other cameras?

So, my point is this ending on a good note. If mostly manual usage, don't hesitate to buy. Mostly auto features, try first. But don't try on a shoot that you need perfect footage while testing. My two helpful cents!
 
Thank you, Jan for all your time and information, and also thanks to everyone else.
I wish it were easy to go try one out, but the closest place that carries gear like this is several hours away. And since I work 7 days a week it's very difficult to do that. In the past I've always reasearched and then bought online.
Like mentioned previously, the 18+ pages about this matter says a lot.
I am not trying to bash these cameras either, I'm just disappointed that it appears they won't be able to be the HD replacement to fill my DVXs shoes. I'm anxious and hopefull that some users will have good results with the area focus help mentioned and post back.
 
OK, I had a chance to play with the area focus tonight... sorry, no footage... but some impressions. I tested at full zoom, and at 53mm for approximate HMC150 / HVX equivalence.

1) This may be obvious, but, overall, it seems to limit the area of the image the camera examines for focus.

2) In some situations, this helps the autofocus performance of the camera. In others, it doesn't. Again, this may be obvious, but if there is texture and contrast in the area focus area, it works well, and allows more precise selection of what to focus on than "regular autofocus". But if the object of focus is large enough, and simple-textured enough, it's easy for the focus area to be too small to gather enough information for focusing. This happened more often than I would expect... many of the objects I tested (boxes, chairs, doors, etc) were large enough at nice framings to not have any edges inside the area focus area. Regular focus seems to (eventually) lock on the the edges/texture nearest the center; so for many situations, it does a better job. So: very situationally dependent, and often requires adjustments to framing to get an edge into the area of focus.

3) I didn't see much speed difference in focusing between area and regular focus... just better ability to specify where to focus.

4) In both regular and area focus, things occasionally just got very slow, with the auto focus numbers running from one end of the scale to the other, sometimes stopping at the focus point, sometimes not. This happened in static situations and framings that had worked well a minute earlier, and worked well a minute later... just panning the camera away and back would sometimes cause this, sometimes not.

5) More disturbingly, in both area and regular focus, the camera occasionally appeared to just "give up"... nothing in the image in focus at all, the autofocus not hunting... just sitting there. This generally happened at a point where the image was all severely out of focus... it never happened when mildly out of focus that I recall. These were not blank-wall situations... this occurred even when the unfocused image had strong variations of intensity and color. When this did happen, only manually jostling the focus ring seemed to snap it out of the malaise. This also happened in static situations and framings that had worked well a minute earlier, and worked well a minute later... just panning the camera away and back would sometimes cause this, sometimes not.

6) I actually found the layout of the controls to work well, and I was indeed even able to adjust the area of focus somewhat while shooting handheld. This might be useful in a stage production where i know I'll be holding some off-centered framing for more than a few seconds, etc. But it still doesn't compare to the ease or precision of manual focusing. The ability to quickly switch area focus on and off is also very useful and well-placed, and helps handle issues in 2) above.

7) The autofocus seems OK, not the best or the worst I've seen, not as snappy as its Panny predecessors, and seemingly a little buggy as in 4) and 5). It is slowish. I've never used a prosumer-level camera with a touchscreen for setting the focus area (I think there are some?)... so I can't compare fully... but I think if I were looking for a camera with autofocus in mind, the AC130 would still not be clearly in or out... the area focus has some benefit that counteracts the sluggish and seemingly buggy autofocus. So... very situationally dependent, still. But I suspect that MOST autofocus situations would counterindicate the 130/160 in the current state.

Conclusion: In my testing, at least, area focus is not the solution everyone here is looking for. It helps in some situations, is worse in others, and seems to get hung up in the same ways that the "regular" focus does.

Further, it seems clear to me that there are algorithmic problems with the autofocus system on the camera. The slow cycling up and down the focal range, often going right through the focal point and on to infinity, than past the focal point to 3.3 feet, then back, etc., seems to indicate that hysteresis is being mismanaged... either over-dampened or hypersensitive. Further, the "giving up" (see #5 above) is clearly an error... it should do SOMETHING if nothing is in focus.

If I were starting to debug this, I'd look at whatever controls hysteresis, and at possible interaction with manual focus assist (which I assume limits the range of autofocus adjustments?). And of course I'd use whatever diagnostic tools I had to immediately pin down this "giving up" issue, which seems glaring and will likely lead to causes of the other problems.

Sorry! I was hoping that giving the Area Focus a fair shake would provide some more positive news!

(Mind you, I never use autofocus, and find that the focus assist features on the AC130 make manual focusing more of a breeze than ever. I love my AC130, and get great results, as most people do. In fact, it's a great camera to learn manual focus on due to all the tools/assists. Maybe the issues raised here are part of the AC-series' pedagogical motivational technique?)
 
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Dstar said:
The only regret I have is that Panasonic clearly understood my dilemma and acknowledged it, but failed to resolve the matter. I have heard everything from the camera works as designed to there was a bad first batch. Nothing to help me in my needs. So, you clearly have to weight your individual needs. Do you see 18 pages of auto focus issues on other cameras?
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I don't believe that I or anyone at Panasonic understood your dilemma nor acknowledged it. I have been here and have said that some of these shots were suspect, like the first one in the thread and that we would look into it, which now why I know exactly how the auto-focus on this camera works. Many of the posts here are about auto-focus but they are all referencing shots that you shouldn't be using auto focus on, or at the minimum using your better judgment on. There were no bad batches of cameras, can't imagine anyone at Panasonic saying that either. I think that the camera can be used successfully in just about any shooting scenario, if you take the time to learn how it works, and stop thinking that it should work like any other camera, because that it cannot do, it is a different camera.

Hey I have seen 30 pages of how noisy the AF100 is, that didn't make it a noisy camera either, that proved to be an operator/choice of monitor situation. The internet is a very strange beast, one can get a very lop-sided view of the world and perhaps not a totally accurate one, if you trust your entire judgement and input to this single source.

Best regards,

Jan
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
Many of the posts here are about auto-focus but they are all referencing shots that you shouldn't be using auto focus on, or at the minimum using your better judgment on.
Best regards,

Jan
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Jan, the deal is other cameras have gotten so good with their auto-focus that we could use the auto-focus in situations that you should probably not use the auto-focus in, but we did it because the auto-focus could handle it. So, some of us that have gotten used to relying on the auto-focus, are disappointed that a camera five years old (XH-A1) has better auto-focus than our shiny new camera. I used the 60D for a lot of my shooting, so I have no problem shooting manual focus when needed, but part of the reason why I bought a "traditional" video camera is because I wanted to rely on the auto-focus.

One example where I will need to rely on the auto-focus is when recording an ice show. At ice level, when the skater comes from one end of the ice towards me, I have a hard enogh time keeping the ice skater in the frame much less trying to do the manual focus. I am hoping the AC130 auto-focus can handle this. I should know in a couple of weeks when I have to cover an ice show. If it does not, I seriously need to consider looking at different options. My Canon XH-A1 had no problem in this situation. I have tested the AC130 auto-focus videotaping my daughter skating, so I am hoping it will be fine. The ice show likes to turn the lights down so it will be tougher.

I guess my point is that I want Panasonic to understand that some of us "Professionals" really do and want good, reliable, auto-focus on a professional camera.

The AC130 is really a good camera over-all, I love how the camera is set up and does offer a lot of features for the money.

Thanks for your input on this issue. I am guessing talking about the auto-focus is not you favorite thing to do in the morning. :)
 
ullanta said:
4) In both regular and area focus, things occasionally just got very slow, with the auto focus numbers running from one end of the scale to the other, sometimes stopping at the focus point, sometimes not. This happened in static situations and framings that had worked well a minute earlier, and worked well a minute later... just panning the camera away and back would sometimes cause this, sometimes not.

5) More disturbingly, in both area and regular focus, the camera occasionally appeared to just "give up"... nothing in the image in focus at all, the autofocus not hunting... just sitting there. This generally happened at a point where the image was all severely out of focus... it never happened when mildly out of focus that I recall. These were not blank-wall situations... this occurred even when the unfocused image had strong variations of intensity and color. When this did happen, only manually jostling the focus ring seemed to snap it out of the malaise. This also happened in static situations and framings that had worked well a minute earlier, and worked well a minute later... just panning the camera away and back would sometimes cause this, sometimes not.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY what I experienced when I tested the camera. Just described much better, thanks.
I had actually begun to rethink buying the ac160 and had hopes for a workaround with the area focusing, but it seems like it just wont be.
I seems like stunning images, and the possibilities are fantastic with 60p and other frame rates...
BUT...
the deal is other cameras have gotten so good with their auto-focus that we could use the auto-focus in situations that you should probably not use the auto-focus in, but we did it because the auto-focus could handle it. So, some of us that have gotten used to relying on the auto-focus, are disappointed that a camera five years old (XH-A1) has better auto-focus than our shiny new camera. I used the 60D for a lot of my shooting, so I have no problem shooting manual focus when needed, but part of the reason why I bought a "traditional" video camera is because I wanted to rely on the auto-focus.
Click to expand...
As Firefox so rightly puts it.

As another pointed out, then I also many times will have to give the camera to people not at all experienced enough to be able to keep good focus while making sure they make good framing. Unfortunately thats my reality.
And so it seems like that camera is not for our company.

Just so f...... annoying as everything else seems ideal on this cam...
 
Firefox39 said:
Jan, the deal is other cameras have gotten so good with their auto-focus that we could use the auto-focus in situations that you should probably not use the auto-focus in, but we did it because the auto-focus could handle it. So, some of us that have gotten used to relying on the auto-focus, are disappointed that a camera five years old (XH-A1) has better auto-focus than our shiny new camera.
Click to expand...

The imager of the XH-A! has fewer pixels and thus less resolution and the lens is shorter. Both of this features will impact how the AF will work. Also there is the additional resolution in AVCHD with is full HD recording (1920 X 1080) which also impacts what the camera needs to do focus wise. So while I do appreciate what you are saying, you are not comparing apples to apples.

Firefox39 said:
One example where I will need to rely on the auto-focus is when recording an ice show. At ice level, when the skater comes from one end of the ice towards me, I have a hard enogh time keeping the ice skater in the frame much less trying to do the manual focus. I am hoping the AC130 auto-focus can handle this.
Click to expand...

I just set up a demo where I had someone 100 feet from the camera and come at it quickly, and it tracked the focus up to the point of minimum object distance. I do suggest that you try this out.

Firefox39 said:
I have tested the AC130 auto-focus videotaping my daughter skating, so I am hoping it will be fine. The ice show likes to turn the lights down so it will be tougher.
Click to expand...

You might want to add a little gain. but wait and see.

Firefox39 said:
I guess my point is that I want Panasonic to understand that some of us "Professionals" really do and want good, reliable, auto-focus on a professional camera.
Click to expand...

The reason it is there is that we know that there are times you need it, we added tools that you should use to optimize its performance. (My sleazy little test above was without the Focus Area turned on.) If we didn't know about the need, then it wouldn't be there.

Firefox39 said:
I am guessing talking about the auto-focus is not you favorite thing to do in the morning. :)
Click to expand...

Just part of the job.

Best,

jan
 
Hello Jan,

I need an opinion and your point of view regarding my particular situation.
It's a shame to say this , here, but i will, i never used a professional camcorder, everything has a beginning :).

Is Panasonic AG-AC160 right choice for me to start learning ? Is it suitable for a beginner (like me) ? that have patience, passion,time and lecture to learn.

P.S Indeed, my first camera was an Panasonic NV RZ1 (still working).

Thank you for your time.
 
PuzzON said:
Hello Jan,
Is Panasonic AG-AC160 right choice for me to start learning ? Is it suitable for a beginner (like me) ? that have patience, passion,time and lecture to learn.
Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...

Well not knowing what it is is that you want to shoot, it is a little hard to say, but if you need a long lens and lots of features to grow into, the AC160 would be a great camera. Tell me more about what you want to shot and I may have more of an opinion for you.

Best,

jan
 
Ullanta and Firefox, I agree with what you said , and I am waiting to see positive results on this issue. I need to buy 2 new cameras now for my work, and I am not sold yet on this solution. I am really frustrated, because I did try this camera out, and the autofocus drove me nuts.
I would also like to see some test results.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
Well not knowing what it is is that you want to shoot, it is a little hard to say, but if you need a long lens and lots of features to grow into, the AC160 would be a great camera. Tell me more about what you want to shot and I may have more of an opinion for you.

Best,

jan
Click to expand...

Thank you for your answer Jan,

I want to shot mainly weddings, party club/dance , fashion, even matinee at kindergarten, less theater, and of course family and home video at professional level.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
The imager of the XH-A! has fewer pixels and thus less resolution and the lens is shorter. Both of this features will impact how the AF will work. Also there is the additional resolution in AVCHD with is full HD recording (1920 X 1080) which also impacts what the camera needs to do focus wise......
Click to expand...
Jan, could you give us an overview why the same features don't have the same impact on the hpx250?
 
Jan,
While I fully understand you defending the ac-160, you must admit that the behavior that I and Ullanta have described with the autofocus, MUST be a faulty behavior?
There must be a way to improve this. It cant be right that to find focus it goes to the end of scale and back (taking 5 seconds) and sometimes just gives up. When there is a clear object to find.
I had thought that maybe the area focus would make a difference, but Ullantas test with area focus on, gave exactly the same behavior that I found.

Another thing about comparing apples with apples, obviously the XHa1 is another kind of camera. We all know the difference of lens and pixels, BUT like stated... You would suspect that the autofocus development could keep up with the lens and pixels development.
Apparently this is not so.
It seems to me, that then Panasonic should research some ways to improve their system.

Or, are you saying that the technology has reached a limit, and with the amount of pixels and glass, it just aint possible to have a snappy autofocus?

thanks for you taking the time to go into this...
 
Lars:

Check out the new "Inconsistent Focus Plane?" thread posted today under the 130/160 blog. This is another issue with the new AC 130/160 and probably 250 camcorders. I have this same issue with my AC 160. I hope Jan/Panasonic will do a better job at addressing this new issue with the "Super Lens" Panasonic is so proud of.
 
jtczere said:
Lars:

Check out the new "Inconsistent Focus Plane?" thread posted today under the 130/160 blog. This is another issue with the new AC 130/160 and probably 250 camcorders. I have this same issue with my AC 160. I hope Jan/Panasonic will do a better job at addressing this new issue with the "Super Lens" Panasonic is so proud of.
Click to expand...

Didn't find that post (not really sure where the blogs are.....). The AC130 and 160 we've been using is sharp all over. Excellent image. Starting to make me consider dumping the HMC150 completely (but not quite ready to do that just yet!)
 
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