ALL: Does this look like an Autofocus Bug to You?? -- Video Clip

[ullanta]

Howdy Jan! It will be great to see that training video! In the meantime, the one big question that occurs to me, and likely to other people, regarding these features is:

How do you use the function knob effectively to direct the autofocus in a shot that's not locked down? Are you saying that there are folks who are, say, shooting events handheld and able to keep shifting the focus area around as they shoot a dynamic scene with a lot of camera motion?

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

How do you use the function knob effectively to direct the autofocus in a shot that's not locked down? Are you saying that there are folks who are, say, shooting events handheld and able to keep shifting the focus area around as they shoot a dynamic scene with a lot of camera motion?

My feeling is that when the shooters are framing their shots there is a general area where they tend to keep the subject, be that in the middle, slightly off to the left or right, up or down. Locate the Area Focus in that area and it will work fairly well. So like a walking talking talent will be say in the middle and I as the shooter will try to keep him there. Or the Bride and Groom are dancing, I would probably want to keep them centered. Think of it as a weighted focus for the camera, it tells it the priority, instead of letting the camera decide what part of the scene's contrast to work with or aim for. And frankly that is just a bad idea as the camera does not have the talent to determine what is important.

I hope this helps,

Jan

 

[Deer Film]

I am disappointed about this news. I really don't want to have to watch a training video, or do X Y Z before I can use autofocus. I want to turn the camera on and have an autofocus work like the HMC150. So reading what Jan had to say, they are not going to fix the software or hardware on this autofocus issue.

It is sad, because this is a cool camera and everything else it great, but I will not buy the camera now, because I want an easy working autofocus like the HMC150.
I will add this video again, because the ac130 autofocus was NOT usable for "me".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8

I have been waiting and waiting and glad Jan told us the facts and we can now make our decision.

Well, I need a camera. I will search the threads now to see other option like Sony or Canon that compare to the AC130.
Maybe next year Panasonic will have a complete camera for my needs, like the AC131EAF (Easy Auto Focus )

 

[ullanta]

My feeling is that when the shooters are framing their shots there is a general area where they tend to keep the subject, be that in the middle, slightly off to the left or right, up or down. Locate the Area Focus in that area and it will work fairly well. So like a walking talking talent will be say in the middle and I as the shooter will try to keep him there. Or the Bride and Groom are dancing, I would probably want to keep them centered. Think of it as a weighted focus for the camera, it tells it the priority, instead of letting the camera decide what part of the scene's contrast to work with or aim for. And frankly that is just a bad idea as the camera does not have the talent to determine what is important.I hope this helps,Jan

Thanks! One more clarification: is there any difference between the default operation and the situation where the area focus is set to the exact center if the screen? My understanding before was that they would be the same, that is, that area focus manipulation would help when the subject was NOT centered, but wouldn't be useful/necessary when the subject was centered. Are you saying that area focus in the center is looking at a smaller center area than the default?

 

[Aje]

Thanks! One more clarification: is there any difference between the default operation and the situation where the area focus is set to the exact center if the screen? My understanding before was that they would be the same, that is, that area focus manipulation would help when the subject was NOT centered, but wouldn't be useful/necessary when the subject was centered. Are you saying that area focus in the center is looking at a smaller center area than the default?

Good question - like to hear the answer too!
Do you with default mean when SW Mode/Function knob is set to INH?

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

I am disappointed about this news. I really don't want to have to watch a training video, or do X Y Z before I can use autofocus. I want to turn the camera on and have an autofocus work like the HMC150. So reading what Jan had to say, they are not going to fix the software or hardware on this autofocus issue.

You don't have to watch a 5 minute training video if you already understand how the autofocus works and perhaps it is really more of a helpful tricks and tips of a video, but you need to keep in mind it is a very long lens with a lot of resolution. I am sure that many of you have had situations where the AF on your DSLR isn't right, heck there just are situations where AF doesn't work so well, it needs contrast. If there is no contrast and then you introduce contrast, then the camera will try to lock on, like the scene with the sign unveiling. In that scene, if it had been set so the area focus was on the woman, the camera would have ignored the sign. If I could take half of the lens length and weight away, and drop the pixel count to that of the 150, then it could work like the 150.

It is sad, because this is a cool camera and everything else it great, but I will not buy the camera now, because I want an easy working autofocus like the HMC150. I will add this video again, because the ac130 autofocus was NOT usable for "me".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8

In your example, the performance of the AC160 would have been improved by using the area focus. We set out 7 signs in the office at calculated distances and the camera hit each one in a simple pan from one to the next. In your example I saw once or twice where the 150 was slower, and when it did get there is was softer. The Auto everything is not an ideal place to shoot, any camera, notice the White Balance that each of the cameras chose, sometimes it was right, sometimes wrong. Auto-focus is a tool in the tool box, not something that you use instead of knowing when to use it or how to use it.

Well, I need a camera. I will search the threads now to see other option like Sony or Canon that compare to the AC130. Maybe next year Panasonic will have a complete camera for my needs, like the AC131EAF (Easy Auto Focus )

Well we looked at a number of competitive cameras for comparison, and in the worst scenarios, like some of those in this thread, they responded the same, worse, and on rare occasion a little better, but not in all cases and still all pretty unacceptable. As an example, the Reception clip with the Christmas Trees was failed by all, although differently. Good luck to you in finding your ideal camera. Be aware that you will need to understand its Auto Focus rules as well or you will be snagged by it as well. Auto-Focus is not perfect, on any camera, it does not substitute for a well honed skill set and knowledge.

Best regards,
Jan

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Thanks! One more clarification: is there any difference between the default operation and the situation where the area focus is set to the exact center if the screen? My understanding before was that they would be the same, that is, that area focus manipulation would help when the subject was NOT centered, but wouldn't be useful/necessary when the subject was centered. Are you saying that area focus in the center is looking at a smaller center area than the default?

Good question and yes there is a difference between the camera just being on and having the Area Focus on, even it is is in the middle of the screen. The Area Focus sets the priority and if something starts coming in to the frame and has contrast, it is possible that under the default setting the camera will start to look at that new object.

Hope that helps,

Jan

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Good question - like to hear the answer too!
Do you with default mean when SW Mode/Function knob is set to INH?

Actually not when is set to INH, but rather when it is just not active. No Area Focus Square on the LCD. It would be similar in performance of the Default with the INH in, but I would not recommend that, because you might need the Area Focus quickly and from an INH mode you would have to go back into the menu to switch it to something more useful. I would leave the Function in the Area Focus and YGet mode, both useful and viable features for getting the maximum out of your cameras.

Best,

jan

 

[Deer Film]

Thank you Jan, I will read over what you talked about again. Believe me, I really like the camera. I am a 2nd grade teacher first, and weekend and summer jobs with video work. So every penny counts.
I am still going to wait on buying a different camera and hold on for the AC130

I will look at the videos when they come out.
And to others, please post or show your results.

Thanks again Jan, you where very respectful and helpful in your answers.
I still believe and support the Panasonic name.

And to anyone, i

 

[scapsinger]

Shot with the AC130 on tripod at a stage event today. Pretty normal stuff...bright stage lights, and a mix of black and white drapes in the background. The auto focus was used a handful of times from the back of the room in the projection booth and worked just fine.

The best combo on the AC130 is the EVF Detail with the focus assist red outlines. Use those, and you can manually focus quite easily.

The auto focus is not as good as the HMC150 (two of which were also used on this shoot) but it's not as bad as initial reports seemed to be indicating.

Didn't use the Focus Area function on this event since most shots were pretty much balanced to the middle of the frame.

 

[Lars Gregersen]

Thanks Jan, for finally giving an answer.

And yes, it definitely makes sense that all this new "power" (read lens and pixels) will make a harder time for the autofocus.
But yesterday I went and tested a Sony NX5, with a 20X lens but half the pixels apparently, and its autofocus was MUCH MUCH better than the 160 that I tested (still slower than the DVX100, but obviously when taking pixels and zoom range into account).

It might be that using the area function would help, but it wont help me, as I am filming Live theatre/dance/acrobatic performances, where using the space differently all the time is an integrated part of the work. What I film changes all the time between broad, to one side of stage to other side of stage etc. Fast movements going from one side to the other of the filming area etc.

Anyway, it seems like the AC-160 is just not for me. A huge shame as I loved my DVX 100 and would have loved an upgrade from that to HD.

I probably will buy the NX5 instead.

BUT, if Panasonic knows all this, where is the new model replacing the HMC-151?
The AC-160 would anyway seem like a HVX-200 in bulky size and weight, but I miss a model that is as sleek as the DVX100, but still HD, and with the great upgrades that the 160 got. (like variable framerate etc.) Kind of like the HPX171, upgraded and with SD-cards...
Is it coming?

Or cant it get better than the HMC151 if it has to stay small and sleek?

 

[jtczere]

Jan:

Thank you for the additional information regarding the auto focus issue and the findings of your in-house 7 sign test. I will try the focus area tip...I shoot theater and concerts which have a lot of movement usually in lighting that is not the best. I like the resolution and reach of the AC160 lens...it is really great, so I will keep my AC160 and do the best I can to work through focus issue in low contrast movement scenes. Other than the auto focus issue, I think the AC160 is super camcorder. One last question, is Panasonic going to formally do anything more regarding this issue.

John C

 

[ullanta]

Thanks Jan! I think everyone involved here should do some more testing with the area focus set to the center… I'll try to do so soon. I think many people, like me, didn't try area focus because they didn't see the feasibility of moving the area around while shooting, and didn't think there would be much difference if it was centered.

As to the folks saying it wouldn't be helpful shooting events where space is used differently... Does ANY autofocus work for that?

 

[Lars Gregersen]

As to the folks saying it wouldn't be helpful shooting events where space is used differently... Does ANY autofocus work for that?

Yes, I actually think so. We normally film our performances with a set of 3 cameras. One full frame, and one in each side, that is allowed to zoom in slightly. Sometimes we agree that one goes closer than the other. But usually it is framed slightly bigger than the height of a person on stage up to half body.
And I believe that the autofocus on our DVX100 has done a really good job of being able to shift focus between the people on stage.
That being said, obviously the autofocus is focusing around the center, so we cant leave it focused on scenography in the center while performers are unfocused in sides.
But it works if they have been focused, then the camera holds the focus even though they walk around on stage, sometimes being at the sides of the stage.

But I admit I havent tested it directly. I have just never experienced any problems. And the test I did with the AC-160 seemed so bad, that it would be impossible to have it on autofocus, as it took up to 5 seconds for it to find a focuspoint.

It will be very exciting if the area focus actually would help.
@ Jtczere: It seems like we shoot similar things, and that you already use a AC-160. It would be great if you can write your experiences with it here.
It is exactly as you say "a lot of movement usually in lighting that is not the best", and it seemed to me, that the AC-160 would never be able to handle this.
Do you use autofocus, or simply keep it in on manual all the time?

Best regards
Lars G.

 

[ullanta]

Yes, I actually think so. We normally film our performances with a set of 3 cameras. One full frame, and one in each side, that is allowed to zoom in slightly. Sometimes we agree that one goes closer than the other. But usually it is framed slightly bigger than the height of a person on stage up to half body.
And I believe that the autofocus on our DVX100 has done a really good job of being able to shift focus between the people on stage.
That being said, obviously the autofocus is focusing around the center, so we cant leave it focused on scenography in the center while performers are unfocused in sides.
But it works if they have been focused, then the camera holds the focus even though they walk around on stage, sometimes being at the sides of the stage.

But I admit I havent tested it directly. I have just never experienced any problems. And the test I did with the AC-160 seemed so bad, that it would be impossible to have it on autofocus, as it took up to 5 seconds for it to find a focuspoint.

It will be very exciting if the area focus actually would help.
@ Jtczere: It seems like we shoot similar things, and that you already use a AC-160. It would be great if you can write your experiences with it here.
It is exactly as you say "a lot of movement usually in lighting that is not the best", and it seemed to me, that the AC-160 would never be able to handle this.
Do you use autofocus, or simply keep it in on manual all the time?

Best regards
Lars G.

Yes, this is also the kind of material I often shoot (mainly operas)... and back in the days when I used autofocus, keeping things centered in the close cams was the only way to force the autofocus... meaning, it didn't matter how the staging used the space... the close cameras had to be fairly tight and centered on what was supposed to be in focus (and best exposed).

But, I switched a while back to doing everything manually, because none of the cameras I used (going from GL2 to DVX to HVX to HMC to AC130 in various combinations) really did a great job of this... some OK with focus, but none with lighting. Using 1/3" cameras, shooting from 60-70 feet away, it's often fine to leave the focus fixed for the whole show... the red peaking on the AC130/160 is great for the "zoom out a little when shooting stuff far from the focal plane" technique... you know exactly how close you can be to any point on the stage and still be in sharp focus.

I use 2-3 cameras. For many 2-camera shoots, it's just me... one camera in a wide shot, one for close shots, and iris-control remotes for both cameras mounted on the close shot camera so I can adjust both manually. I bought the AC130 to use as the wide-shot camera, because of the extra resolution and DRS in progressive modes. As a wide camera, it is left in a fixed focus...

 

[scapsinger]

On stage yesterday we shot a gymnastics demo, a martial arts demo and a cheerleading demo. There was a TON of movement front to back and left to right on stage. Both the HMC150 cameras had to be on manual focus to properly capture this, because at full zoom, they WILL lose focus. And at 24p, this is a disaster. At 60p, it recovers fairly quickly (the 24p vs. 60p difference has nothing to do with these cameras specifically, by the way).

The operators on the HMC150 had a heckuva time keeping up with the focus because of the low quality of the HMC150 monitor and the limited focus assist abilities. The AC130 operator was at the back of the room in full tele and said it was a breeze. He used the higher quality screen, the detail function and the red outlines to keep track of the focus and the footage turned out very sharp.

I would counter anyone who says that this camera is not the true HMC150 successor by saying that we have proven in on a number of jobs to beat the HMC150 hands down in all practical areas. The HMC150 auto focus is NOT substantially better, although it does seem to recover more quickly after losing focus. It does, however, lose the focus just as often as the AC130 and the AC160.

 

[Phil1076]

The HMC150 auto focus is NOT substantially better, although it does seem to recover more quickly after losing focus. It does, however, lose the focus just as often as the AC130 and the AC160.

Simply put, this is not true; at least not form me.

 

[Phil1076]

Hi,

Sorry it has taken me so long to post back here; I have been looking at the Auto-Focus function and studying it. It seems that for some of the very reasons that Barry pointed out in one of his replies that the camera is not going to be just like any other camera. The lens is the longest lens in the market; it has a full pound of weight over say the HMC150's lens. It has four times the resolution of the HMC150's imager and this does in fact come into play when working with Auto-Focus. Auto-Focus can be faster with a lighter lens, it can be less accurate and thus fast in reaching focus when it doesn't have the same pixel count(620,000 vs. 2,000,000). We have been testing this camera and looking at the places where it is right on the money. Have we been able to make it not auto-focus or hunt, sure, but once we applied knowledge to it and started to use the tools in the camera, its performance improved. I think the thing to do in looking at any auto-focusing system, is to understand how it works. They are not all built the same way, and they will all fail under certain circumstances. Having an idea about when it might is a very important piece of information. Heck my Nikon D700 doesn't always nail the auto focus either, and it too is a pretty expensive camera. There are times I just have to use manual focus.

The Camera uses a piezo electric focusing technology that looks for contrast in a scene, if there is no contrast, it will be hard for those 2 million pixels to decide where to put the focus, so you will have to help it, and if you cannot improve the situation, then move to manual focus.

In looking at the clips in this thread, I think I can describe why the camera did what it did in each case. I know in another thread I tried to point to the Function Knob Focus Area feature so that one could tell the camera where to look. I find when I use that Area Focus the camera is pretty much right on target. I encourage people to do this. I encourage you all to learn how to work with the camera, and tell it where you want it to focus. To not use the focus area, is to not take advantage of the feature set built into the camera to help it define the priority for focus.

All I can say is that there is no way to make this camera perform like the smaller lighter cameras. Laws of Physics just cannot be denied here. We have been working on a Training Video about this function, which does feel a little odd, but we felt that because this lens was so different from the others that are out there, it might be called for. Anyhow as soon as it is done, I will post back. In the interim, do study how to use that Area Focus, it is your best friend if you need Auto-focus.

Best,

Jan

I guess the laws of physics don't apply to Canon or Sony.

 

[Dstar]

rogar-Smoke(DBG):My point is if you put a Pinto engine in a Ferrari chassy, is it still a sports car? If you are developing a new and larger lens, you can't use the same auto focus system that works in a lighter lens. Am I one of the only one's that sees there is a problem with that. So, Panasonic messed that one up! If you clearly are developing a new longer lens system, you must also develop a auto focus system that works with that. You simply can't take it from previous cameras and place it into the new camera and think it is going to magically work. Mathematics!

 

[Dstar]

The HMC150 auto focus is NOT substantially better, although it does seem to recover more quickly after losing focus. It does, however, lose the focus just as often as the AC130 and the AC160.

This is not my what I have noticed. I never knew that auto focus could be so bad until I first started shooting with the AC160. Look at users replies. One guy said his family was going to purchase him a pair of glass after he shot some home video's. I have not heard of this with tons of other camera's. The auto focus just stood out as a big issue to me after using it right away. I did not notice it with the HMC150.