Documentary: Canon XF300, XF200, or something completely different?

A

AlexNOR

Active member
Hi guys

I'm currently trying to decide which camera would best suit my needs for documentary type filming. However outside of the DSLR world my camera knowledge is quite limited, so I am hoping someone in here would be so kind and help me out.

Below I have listed what features I consider a must, what features I would like to have, and what I would like to avoid. I think any kind of setup involving a rigged up DSLR or mirrorless camera would be less then ideal and therefore I'm leaning against a traditional camcorder style solution, but I may be wrong.

Must have:
Built in ND filters
Zebra / Peaking
Image stabilization for handheld work.
Rings for manual control of focus, zoom and aperture.
Best dynamic range and image possible (this is all relative).
Decent low-light abilities (also relative).
XLR inputs (or the ability to add them).
Manual audio control.
1080P

Would like to have:
Single lens with long zoom.
Usable full-auto settings (it's nice to know it works).
Some sort of wide dynamic range profile, or the ability to create one.
World camera (PAL & NTSC), but not a necessity.
1080P50 / 1080P60 or other slow motion capability.
Some sort of time-lapse function.

Would like to avoid:
Manual controls hidden in menu (I like buttons).
Many different components, and different batteries to run them all.
A very large setup, unless it is shoulder mounted.

These are just things from the top of my head right now. To give you a better idea I've been looking into the XF300 and XF200 lately. I was very interested in the XF200, however I am put off by the lack of manual controls of it's ND filters (it's auto or off only) and people complaining about the lousy low-light abilities. Regarding the XF300 it is a little bit on the expensive side, and I would have to get one used. It's also an older model, and I don't know how it compares to newer models.

For a while I was also looking into the C100, but it is very difficult getting one used, and a new one once I have purchased lenses is too expensive.

I know I should go and test cameras for myself to see which one I like the best, but unfortunately the nearest dealer that actually stock and display any of this equipment is an 8 hour drive away, and even they have most of it on special order only.

I know very little about the offerings from Sony and Panasonic or any other manufacturer. If anyone can help me out or point me in the right direction, I would be very grateful.

- Alex
 
I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions, but for starters it would help if you gave a budget range. Up to $5000 US?

Also, the XF300 doesn't do 1080p60, only does 60fps at 720p.

How much of a rush? There are some new cameras coming out in the next month or so that we have seen no (or very little) real footage from: Sony X70, Panasonic X1000, etc. It's hard to judge low light, etc. from specs, but you might put these also on your list for consideration. You can approximate wide dynamic range with some judicious use of picture settings.

How small? Do you need a 20x zoom, or would 12x or so do?
 
What is your price limit, the price of a new XF300?

Also, what is a "long" zoom? You can get a C100 + 24mm-105mm F/4, for $5200, about $300 more than a brand new XF300.
 
Hi guys, thank you for your replies.

Budget wise I think US$4000.00, or the price for a new XF205, is equal to what I would be most comfortable with. I could maybe stretch it to the equivalent of US$5000.00, but there need to be benefits. Hence why I am considering a used XF300, not a new one. However this may change, so discussing slightly more expensive solutions if superior is welcome.

My "long" zoom is somewhere around 26-30mm on the short end to 400-500mm or longer on the long end (in 35mm terms). I've always shot on DSLR's so I don't really talk in 12x, 18x and 20x language for zooms (I have to look at the 35mm equivalent range to get a good idea), but I think that would be like a 14x to 20x zoom? The longer the better.

Thanks for the tip on the Sony X70 and Panasonic X1000. I'm not in a huge rush, so I will keep an eye on them.

The X70 has an impressive sensor, but it's too bad they put it in a smaller prosumer type of body. It looks to have limited external controls and only one control ring for focus, zoom and aperture, which is a bit of a deal breaker. The style of the X1000 looks a lot more appealing to me with all the external controls. I found some test footage from the X1000, and while sharp and detailed, I didn't find the image looking good at all. I got the impression that it has poor handing of highlights. Im not really a big fan of the whole 4K thing yet, I can see why some would need/want it, but in the lower end cameras it looks to be more of a hype thing.

That said, it is impossible to judge a camera based on specs and so little footage. I am excited to see what they both can do "in the real world" after they are released.

The C100 is what I was looking at initially, but I think it will get too expensive. The new units cost a bit more here in Norway, and so does the used ones. To get the focal range I want, I reckon I would have to get the 24-105 and 100-400 at least, which will add some significant cost. It can still be a viable option if I can source all the gear used at reasonable prices.

I'm also intrigued by the simplicity of a camcorder style solution, it is just one single unit with everything, no need to add this or add that. And it just works. I'll be doing some heavy run-and-gun style shooting without the ability for retakes, so easy of use in such situations is also key. Since I'm not familiar with any of these cameras it is very hard to judge that.

I have looked at the Sony PMW-160 and PMW-200. The 200 is more expensive, but has a 1/2 inch sensor instead of a 1/3 sensor. I dont know how these two compares to the XF300, but the bigger sensor for sure will be an advantage in low light and maybe for general image quality?

Thanks for your inputs guys, I'm really trying to wrap my head around all the options available at the moment.
 
Anyone?

Sony has also just released the PXW-X160 and PXW-X180. While I'm not 100% sure about the differences between the two, as they are pretty similar, the X180 is listed for $4999.00 at B&H, and I would expect the slightly less featured X160 to also be a bit cheaper.

They both have all the features I want, except for maybe the low light capabilities. I would prefer a 1/2" sensor, but the only viable option I have found is the PMW-200. However the PMW-200 is a little older and lacks a couple of features I would very much want, like 1080p50 and 10 bit 4:2:2. Sony have announced their replacement, the PXW-X200, but it will be $8000+ from what I've found and that is quite a bit out of my budget.

I also looked briefly at the Panasonic AJ-PX270 microP2, but it seems this has some wierd issues with the image stabilization when doing other then stationary shots.

I don't know how big of a deal the 1/2" vs 1/3" is in regards to image quality, low light capabilities and dynamic range as I've never shot with either (DSLR only here). If anyone could enlighten me on the subject I would very much appreciate it.

Another issue is storage. The Sony and Panasonic camcorders, from what I know, all use their own proprietary storage medias which cost a fortune. I will do a duplicate recording regardless, as what I will be filming mostly is one-off events. SD or CF card compatibility would definitely save me some money.

The C100 is out of the question, as it doesn't fit my application like a traditional video camera does.

Any advice, tips and suggestions are highly appreciated. :)

- Alex
 
You can't get away from the fact that the C100 makes the prettiest images. Clients will prefer it by miles over these other options in terms of final images. The audience will value your work more. That advantage is alone worth giving away a small convenience like an extreme long lens. It's the perfect combination between high-end quality, lowlight AND camcorder usability. I would suggest finding a C100, used or stretch the budget for a C100 mk II, such a beautiful camera. There are many cheap 18-200/300 APS-C lenses that will work very well and still produce an image way superior to any 1/3" camera yet with all the ergonomic advantages of traditional camcorders.

But if you really find you can live with the limited image of the smaller sensor cameras (I can't, the professional world is dominated by large chips now!) then XF205 seems like the best one. You will have to make a compromise in at least one or two points and the faulty NDs is one conpromise I would take.
 
So you want to make a documentary? Try the Alexa test. Someone gives you an Alexa (or a C100) and says go forth, make your documentary. What are you going to do? Too many people use "choosing the right camera" as an excuse for not being able to make "a documentary" when if they weren't just indulging in wishful thinking would be making their documentary with an iphone. There is no perfect camera, nor will there ever be. You have a DSLR, you could, like many others, be making your documentary with that. So, my suggestion, start from the other end, plan your documentary, work out the shots and audio you'll need and what it takes to get them (and my suggestion for the all round best compromise camera, Canon XA20).
 
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