Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL DVX?

Pascal Parvex

Pascal Parvex

Well-known member
It's not a 24p camera.

Yes I know, you 'just' have to skip a frame, and you 'just' have to fix the audio, but come on, that's quite much to do. And you also had to _fix_ the video, because there is a frame missing every second. I don't get it. Yes, 25p is really near 24p, but it isn't 24p! NTSC users get their TV standard, 30p and 60i, _and_ 24p. PAL users get their TV standard, 25p and 50i, and... Nothing. There's just nothing. _Every_ PAL video camera has the 25 frames, mostly interlaced, but _every_ PAL video camera has it.

I bought the a NTSC DVX100A because the PAL-A wasn't available at that time, and I really needed a camera, and I did not want to buy crap, and the DVX100 PAL was even more expensive as the NTSC-A. I would like to sell my NTSC-DVX and buy a PAL-DVX because of the extra resolution, but the missing 24p mode really turns me off. So I use Canopus Procoder to do the NTSC/PAL conversion, so I don't need to flub on the footage if I ever want to do a film print.

And I get the 'Look, the image quality isn't as sharp as PAL, so it is from the United States'-footage 'effect' for free. :)
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

i am sure the higher resolution is worth more than the 1fps speed difference when going to filmprint.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

[quote author=alpi69 link=board=nws;num=1085907749;start=0#1 date=05/30/04 at 02:36:22]i am sure the higher resolution is worth more than the 1fps speed difference when going to filmprint. [/quote]

Sure, but then you don't need a DVX...
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

?? the way the DVX handles the incoming light when in 25p mode is different than its competitors like XL1. so why don´t you need a DVX when you want to go to film. XL1 is also not able to do 24p AND they deliver a "normal" videoimage.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

[quote author=alpi69 link=board=nws;num=1085907749;start=0#3 date=05/30/04 at 09:27:37]XL1 is also not able to do 24p AND they deliver a "normal" videoimage.[/quote]

Sure, the image quality is still far superior, but there's nothing left for marketing, as nobody will sell a camera with Cine Gamma, but with the real thing, 24p. But Panasonic threw out the 24p mode on the PAL for no apparent reason. Maybe they don't want to sell to much in PAL country as the production is limited. Or Sony and JVC forced them to skip 24p, so the PAL-DVX loses much of it's attention it gets in NTSC country.



:)
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

I think there are some other reasons at work here. There has been some disucssion on PAL DVX earlier....u need to find the threads.

For me it is hard to swallow that a company like Panaonic would 'NOT WANT' to sell 'MUCH' in Pal land because the 'production is limited'. I am sorry but there are many discrepensies in this observation. Major companies market their products to do business...they do their feasibilities much before such questions are discussed at forums like these....and I am sure there is lot of production work in PAL land...though not necessarily US-styled. It is also hard to believe that Sony or JVC could 'force' Pana to skip 24P.

That having said, i think we need a more techcnical analysis of the Q whether it is possible for a cam to have both 24P and 25P, at the same time.?

An interesting Question though.  
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

The NTSC pulldown allows for a 24fpos mode on the camera since the casdence can be stored as ADANCED. In PAL, the pulldown cadence (in NTSC terms) is:

11 A frames (2 fields, same timecode)
1 B frames (3 fields, timecode change between fields 2 and 3)
11 C frames (2 fields, timecode change between fields)
1 D frame (3 fields, timecode change between fields 1 and 2)

In order for the 24 NTSC to work, the ADVANCED cadence of the "C" Frame is dropped entirely which requires no decompress or recompress. But in the Case of the PAL pulldown, uoi can create similar frames (3 fields long) and have 11 of them in a row. The capture can be done, but involves a decompress/recompress of the DV stream. creating a 2nd generation of those 11 frames.

Michael
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

I haven't seen it, but I would assume that there wouldn't be a visual difference between 24P and 25P, except maybe to the most trained eye, and still it would be difficult to tell.

I shot a film a couple years ago, with a Canon Optura (which can do 30P). When we played it in a cinema, through digital projection, the theatre owner thought it was 16mm transfered to DVD.

Now that's a little bit of a shock, seeing how there is a visual difference between 24P and 30P, but still!

Being a huge difference, worth worrying about between 24P and 25P, I highly doubt it...
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

what makes 24P "the real thing" and 25P not.. i just don't get the problem Pascal Provex... you have the same look (it *is* the same look as 24P), no pull-down biz, playable as is on any monitor, TV set, NLE.. the transfer to film is not an issue (if you're really worried about it you should know it yourself).. i mean.. "the lack of 24P turns you off".. common, it's not all about hype you know..

the fact that this camera costs so much in europe is a real bummer, but it's due to customs definitions.. it basically should cost the same. it does, in new-zealand for example.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

and in the US...too ;D
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

exactly.. in the US too. get yourself a DVX100AE and save your trip to NYC :)
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

[quote author=shai link=board=nws;num=1085907749;start=0#10 date=06/01/04 at 07:39:21]exactly.. in the US too. get yourself a DVX100AE and save your trip to NYC :)[/quote]

It's 'Parvex' and I already have a DVX. :)
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

yeah i know.. "get yourself a DVX100AE and save your trip to NYC" is something i say to myself all the time... sounds like a touring agency :P
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Well, I have edited a film shot on 16mm at 25p. And it was meant for theatrical viewing.

I guess here in the uk, people shoot their films at 25p. I don't know, I heard something like that.

Can someone more familiar with the facts, clarify this?

All the best

Fidel.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Film will normally be shot on 24fps even in PAL land becuase that is the standard but it is telecined at 25fps to put it on TV, Video or DVD, the 4% difference in speed is not significant. The most noticable thing about 24fps shown at 25fps is if you use a stop watch when you watch it at the cinema and then when you watch it at home, it will be a bit shorter at home. Oh yeah and if they haven't bothered to fix the sound ( which they often don't because you won't notice that either unless you have a reference) it will be 4% higher pitched.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

That is what I thought, but the film I edited was shot at 25fps.

I know of another feature shot on 35mm, that was shot at 25fps as well.

I would like to know the reason behind it. If it was going to be shot for TV, then it would be understandable, but since it was for the cinema, I don't really get it.

I would normally want to shoot 24fps.

Anyway, all the best

Fidel.
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Hey Pascal,

don't get upset about this. Indeed the PAL version has a much higher resolution, and do you know most movie theaters in europe actually project films at 25p, even if they were shot in 24. Cinema projectors can be switched to one or the other, because many films in europe are shot at 25. To save a few minutes, as unbelievable as it may seem, I know this form a friend projectionist, projectors are often left at 25 all the time.

So forget about losing a frame, adjusting the audio etc. Even if you're going to film, stay at 25 the whole time, and this way you'll be sure that when projected your film won't be slightly sped up.

cheers
 
Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

Re: Do you know what get's me upset about the PAL

I also heard that films in Europe are projected at 25fps.
 
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