Do we really need a P2 ???

[KRONSTADT films]

Ok... this just an idea that I have had from the first day that the HVX200 was announced. (I should say from the outset that I do not own an HVX200 yet and I have never worked with these camers, though can't wait to get my hands on one).
And I can see that some people are thinking along the same lines. So here it is.

Problem: P2 cards are bad news 4Gb or 8Gb for ridiculous prices and you can't even record enough. When on location, group dynamics are very important, I like keeping my cameras rolling until I get the talent to pronounce the line just as I want it... this is why digital is great news for my style of directing. Now, P2 complicates that... we have to go back to aranging the takes and saying "Action", and it just doesn't work with with first time actors. So there is a need for continous rolling.

Not only that, but P2s are very pricey. At the same time the CinePorter does not provide answers either... still too expensive.

Solution: (or is it???) So this is what I thought on the first day when HVX200 was announced: What about getting PCMCIA adaptor just like the one here...

or

and then connecting it to an external PORTABLE hard drive, like LACIE which does not require power... something like this (and securing it somewhere on top of HVX200)... something like this:

Has anybody tried anything along these lines???

Of course I could always take my old Toshiba or Dell laptop (which have PCMCIA slots) with me to the shooting location for emptying the P2 cards into its HDD, but this is really not the solution to P2's limitations.

At the end of the long shooting day, I can then bring this Portable HDD home, empty it into the Mac Pro and edit happily ever after

If this works the its Cheap and Comfortable way to record HD 720/24pN on HVX200 and making most of it.

Has anybody tried something like this??? Has it worked??? What were the results??? Will the footage quality be affected???

 

[Barry_Green]

Of course we've tried that. People were trying to work things like that before the HVX even hit the market. The reason you haven't heard about us doing it is because it doesn't work, nor will it ever work. You can't just plug a hard drive in and expect it to work, there are reasons that the FireStore costs $1800 and Sony's new hard disk recorder costs $1800. There are reasons P2 cards cost what they do.

But hey, if any entrepreneur wants to make alternatives to the cards, go right ahead, there are plenty of potential customers who want to see such a product.

 

[KRONSTADT films]

Yes... I thought it would not be that easy... of course.
I just hoped that the creative people of this community would come up with some cool solution to what seems to be the greatest limittion of P2 and HVX, just like some creative individuals have come up with pretty cool DIY solutions for constructing their own lens Adapters.

Have a look at the following article.
http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?CategoryID=67&ArticleID=11278
It seems like there are some companies out there apart from CinePorter that offer some sort of solutions with involve external hard-drives. It even mentions that there is a working solution to attach a Firewire to the side of HVX and shoot like that... and apparently it works.
Has anybody heard of or does anybody have any working solutions of this kind??? There must be a way around this wretched P2!

 

[Barry_Green]

There must be a way around this wretched P2!

Well, with all due respect, you just lost a lot of people there. P2 is far from "wretched". Expensive, yes, but it beats the living hell out of hard disk or tape recording in every possible way. Spend some time with hard disk recorders, spend some time working with P2, and you'll reach for the card every time you can. The only thing the hard disk offers is a longer recording time, but that bonus comes with a lot of drawbacks.

So anyway -- I'm all about options, but I think you're seriously shortchanging your perspective if you think that the P2 solution is a negative. Just try it. Then try a hard disk recorder. Then let's talk.

 

[KRONSTADT films]

of course I'm gonna do that... o course I'm gonna work with P2... can't wait. But I'm comming from a director's perspective, not from a cinematographer's one. And every director has a style... a certain code that distinguishes him/her from others.
For my style of directing I prefer very small crews of multi-tasking people who perform a variety of functions... at times as little as just 2 people (camera and mic-boom)... So there is little space for the P2 swapper (also I assume taking the P2 card out while filming would shake the camera. No?)
Also when filming first-time actors the whole dinamic changes... its not like you can say "Action" and expect them to deliver after 3 takes. Instead, the camera keeps rolling... the screenplay lines get re-worked... etc etc. Guerilla filmaking, just like French New Wave and Dogme95 imports many documentary and experimental styles...
There is a whole list of artistic intricacies, which the DVX100 permits (albeit without the stanning visuals), which the designers of P2 realy should have though about. So, maybe P2 is not "wretched", but it is a real barrier -- a type of barier that could cause extra tension and headache on already terse film-shooting sets.
At the same time there is the obvious issue of cost...

But in any case... I remember few months ago there were threads from people who said that they successfully put together some kind of hard-drive and have successfully shot HD through a fire-wire. I just cant find those threads now.

 

[Barry_Green]

But the point is... films were made for a long, long, long time on film. And probably 99.5% of all films that get released in the theaters are still shot on film. And P2 gives you the same amount of runtime as film does.

So if it was possible to shoot on film, it's possible to do the same workflow with P2, even with the smallest tiniest 4GB cards. The main difference being, you can always just delete what didn't work off the cards; with film you've spent $50 per minute for however long that camera was rolling.

It's not that I'm not listening to you, it's that I'm pointing out that what you're describing would never work on a film set, so accordingly it doesn't work on a P2 set either. Some day it will, as cards grow in capacity. When we have 128gb cards and 10 hours of footage in-camera with no swapping whatsoever, you'll never hear anyone complain about runtimes again.

But right now, a 4gb card gives you 4 minutes of 1080 (about the same runtime as a 400' magazine of film) or 10 minutes of 720/24pN (about the same runtime as a 1,000' magazine of film). It works for film people, it works for P2 shooters, it's just how it's been done.

And the only hard disk anyone is shooting to is a firestore (or citidisk); it takes a special dedicated hard disk recorder to be able to record video data from any camera, not just the HVX.

 

[Shooter]

There is a function of the HVX that will suit your directing style perfectly.

Its called Loop Mode recording where you can roll the camera as long as you wish with two cards installed. This can go on indefinitely until ytou get your "take/performance".

There are many other "trick" functions that you should look into that you probably are unaware of at this stage.

BTW: Well worth buying (investing in) Barry Greenns excellent HVX book before you buy your own HVX200 IMHO

Another thought for you - do not consider a P2 card in the same sense as a DV tape or a roll of film. It requires a paradigm shift that considers it is part of the camera /edit hardware system and not just capture/storage media.

 

[tlorenzo]

This whole "To P2 - or not to P2" debate really comes down to the type of work you do. If you want to run long shoots like documentaries where the tape rolls for hours then the HVX/P2 comination just might not be the right thing for you. Instead you should look into cameras in the same price range that can record (lesser quality) HD onto tape.

 

[Eric Papa]

I think the P2 is an outstanding advancement in production. I recently shot 2 commercials in 1080/24p mode (17 min [two 8GB]) and it worked great. No dumping of P2 cards. Instant review of each shot -if we didn't like the shot, or the jib wasn't level, ect., we deleted it, and re shot it. Try doing that with your film stock

I too used to role tape hoping to "get the shot I wanted", but I have found that with the P2 - "Action" - "Cut" - "check the film plane - oops I mean review the clip" everyone, including novice talent, takes the shoot much more seriously and I have had better results. Again, this was just for 30 second spots.

However I feel that panasonic is not delivering on their end with the P2, they used to have a timeline on their site for releases of 16GB and 32GB cards, which they totally missed...so they removed it from the website. I think they'll switch to a different form of compression before we see these 'smoke and mirrors' 32GB and 64GB cards. But, I am still a very satisfied customer.

 

[BillPryor]

I've been trying to get my arms around the P2 thing too and am in the same boat. It's not so much the short recording times for me as what you have to do after the cards are full. The P2 Store is one solution, but it only holds 60 gigs, not nearly enough for a week of out of town shooting. Also, on the Panasonic site it talks about Windows compatiblity, not Mac, so that's a problem for me.

People keep comparing P2 to film, but back in my film days I always had enough magazines loaded up in advance to last a day, and I could change a 400' magazine, pull the lens and check for hairs in 2-3 minutes. If I had to go into the changing bag and unload and reload a magazine, that might take 5-7 minutes. And, I could take all the film stock I wanted on a shoot. I don't think I could take as many P2 cards as I'd need.

My feeling is that P2, or something like it, is a coming thing but for many of us it's not quite here yet. Again, the capacity of the cards isn't the deal breaker--it's what you have to do after shooting. And then, if something like the P2 Store held quadrouple the current one's capacity, there's still the issue of what to do with the footage after the storage device is full. I don't always take a show back to the studio and start editing immediately. Sometimes another editor will handle it, and he may not be ready for days or weeks. Even if it got edited immediately, the original footage would have to be stored on something safer than hard drives. Such things exist, DLT type tape devices and Blu-ray, but they're expensive and/or time consuming. And with all that manipulation of the data from when it's first downloaded from the card, there's lots of room for human and or technological error.

I'm not knocking P2. I love the camera and have seen some great stuff from it--that's what got me interested in trying to see if I could make the workflow work. I think at this point it does work in some limited situations, but not for guys who may be on the road for a week and shoot 10 or 12 hours of stuff, or for long interview shoots with only an interviewer, cameraman and soundman. I like the camera so much I'm tempted to go with one and just shoot DV until such time as P2 gets more reasonable for me...but that requires putting faith in the fact that it will, indeed, get to a useable form (for me) in a reasonable time period. Plus, some people have said they think Panasonic will go with the new H.264 type format to get more data on existing cards before coming up with bigger capacity cards for lower costs. I would hate to buy an HVX200 and then find out that next year's model would give you twice as much in the same size card. So that's a concern too. If a 16 gig card came on the market next week for the price of a current 8 gigger, and something like the P2 Store came out with a much greater capacity and lower price, then I might get excited and change my tune and worry about the back end time/cost factors later. Right now, though, it's a time and cost versus value issue.

 

[ozduc]

For my style of directing I prefer very small crews of multi-tasking people who perform a variety of functions... at times as little as just 2 people (camera and mic-boom)...Also when filming first-time actors the whole dinamic changes... its not like you can say "Action" and expect them to deliver after 3 takes. Instead, the camera keeps rolling... the screenplay lines get re-worked... etc etc.

On your first point I think you are placing more limitations on yourself and crew by trying to shoot a movie with a couple of people for crew and as for the actors delivering what you want, you know there are many creative people on this and many other boards and others that have been making movies for a long that have come up with a very good technique to solve this problem... it's called rehearsal

 

[Justin Marx]

Just did a Honda commercial hanging out of a helicopter with two Gyro's and 25mph gusts and bumps.. Not one lost frame.. just a few brain cells.. Try that with a Hard Drive..

Gotta LOVE P2! I sure do..

 

[Barry_Green]

People keep comparing P2 to film, but back in my film days I always had enough magazines loaded up in advance to last a day

P2 cards are magazines, not stock. The hard drives (or whatever you offload to) are the "stock".

, and I could change a 400' magazine, pull the lens and check for hairs in 2-3 minutes.

You can change a card in three seconds.

If I had to go into the changing bag and unload and reload a magazine, that might take 5-7 minutes.

Putting the card in the P2 Store or the computer with P2 Genie takes about five seconds. Think of the computer as the film tent/changing bag. And you don't have to stay in there with it, there's a little "P2 Genie" in there who does the changing for you. He changes the film out while you're shooting on your fresh mag.

And, I could take all the film stock I wanted on a shoot. I don't think I could take as many P2 cards as I'd need.

That's because the cards aren't stock. They're empty magazines. The hard disk is your "stock". A 300gb hard disk would hold 13 hours of 720/24pN footage, for about $100. Actually I haven't needed more than about 20 gb for a day's shooting, but even if you round that up to 60gb, 60gb hard disks are nearly giveaway nowadays. A 300gb hard disk should last someone about a week, not just a day.

And remember, this analogy only needs to last as long as the cards are small. The bigger the cards, the more we enter the realm of shoots that film couldn't even do. Right now a single 8gb card can hold 20 minutes of 720/24pN; that's nearly impossible to do on 35mm. When the 16gb card comes out then you'll have 80 minutes in-camera. Eventually the 128gb card will mean 10 hours of footage live in-camera with no offloading.

No doubt we need a bigger/better P2 Store. 60gb may work fine with news stuff, but we should have at least double or triple that now. I think a lot of us are ignoring the P2 Store and instead using a laptop with/without P2 Genie. P2 Genie turns a laptop into the functional equivalent of a P2 Store but with access to hundreds and hundreds of gigabytes rather than just a limited 60gb drive.

but not for guys who may be on the road for a week and shoot 10 or 12 hours of stuff,

It can work, but if all you're doing is shooting and you're not working with the footage at all, then tape may be a more viable workflow for that type of circumstance.

or for long interview shoots with only an interviewer, cameraman and soundman.

This is really easy to do; two 8gb cards will give you longer continuous runtime than any BetaSP camera could do, so you just swap out cards when necessary, just like you'd have to swap tapes when necessary. Pop the card in the P2 Genie laptop (or P2 Store) and it'll take care of everything for you.

Plus, some people have said they think Panasonic will go with the new H.264 type format to get more data on existing cards before coming up with bigger capacity cards for lower costs.

There's speculation, but no commitment at all. The only thing we know about AVC-Intra is that it's aimed at the HPX2000, a $30,000 camera. And the other format, AVC-HD, has only been talked about by Panasonic Consumer so far; I don't know whether Panasonic Broadcast will adopt it or not. I think they should, but that doesn't necessarily mean that *they* think they should!

I would hate to buy an HVX200 and then find out that next year's model would give you twice as much in the same size card.

Well, I can guarantee you one thing: things will always change, there'll always be a new model, and it'll do things your current camera doesn't. So that's what ebay's for. You buy what you need now, and if something comes along that is a significant-enough upgrade to make a real difference in your workflow, you dump what you've got on ebay and put the proceeds towards the new unit. These cameras are getting so cheap now and pay for themselves so quickly that you should easily be able to amortize it over a six-month period. The only question is: can you make it do what you need, now, and does it make sense on an ROI calculation. If yes, go for it. If not, keep waiting; there's always going to be something new. And there'll always be some achilles' heel somewhere with whatever new product comes out!

 

[KRONSTADT films]

Reading through the discussions I have seen that even though P2 is a really cool technology, there is still a genuine concern with what one can do with it. Untill 16GB, 32GB and 64GB cards are out and untill they drop to decent prices "with human face", untill that day discussions and murmours of this kind will remain.

Now, for Internal shoots or for shoots where transportation, weight and even camera mobility is not an issue, I guess I can have a PC laptop next to me so as to periodically empty the cards.... OR... use "DV Rack" or "Canopus Broadcast" for direct recording into Laptop's hard-drive. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

As for the Location Shoots, where setting up a whole laptop, tent, heavy gear is problematic... also where transport is problematic, I guess the best and cheapest solution is Firestore.

Am I right or whould you suggest something else?

PS: I was also told that there may be a compatibility issue between my Toshiba laptop XP (where I would be emptying the P2 cards) and Mac Pro desktop at headquarters where the footage will be edited on FCP. Is this true??? Does this mean I would also need to get a Macbook Pro???

I thankful for any practical advice you may give to a person who is more of a director rather than a technician.

 

[Barry_Green]

You definitely wouldn't need a Macbook Pro, your PC laptop will be fine. Just offload to external firewire or USB drives that have been formatted FAT32. No compatibility problems at all, I do it all the time.

As for a location shoot -- firestore is an option, but so is just having a couple of cards. I mean, if you're documenting a four hour concert and you need one continuous take, then yeah, firestore's the way to go right now (or will be when the new firmware update is out). But if you're doing dramatic narrative production, two 8gb cards should be plenty, with a rare/occasional offloading in the battery-powered laptop or in a P2 Store or something...

 

[KRONSTADT films]

Barry Green, So I will be able to offload P2s into the Laptop's internal FAT32 hard-drive and then trasfer the footage into MacPro for editing. What you said about FAT32 and MacPro/FCP compatibility is a great relief. Thank you!!!

As for going into locations without having to carry a laptop and without having to interchange the P2 cards, then I guess recording directo to Firestore FS100 or CinePorter or CityDisk is the only option remaining. Or are there other cheaper options? Also how do they compare? Which one is the cheapest and easiest in terms of worklow: Firestore FS100, CinePorter, CityDisk or any other ? ? ?

 

[dregenthal]

. . . I would hate to buy an HVX200 and then find out that next year's model would give you twice as much in the same size card . . .

We'd all hate that Bill but I guess you'd want to factor in what you're able to do with the existing technology between now and then, no?

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I wanna know why Panny went with a PCIMCIA design right when they are pretty much being phased out. Wouldn't an Expresscard P2 card design have been more practical?

 

[dregenthal]

As for going into locations without having to carry a laptop and without having to interchange the P2 cards, then I guess recording directo to Firestore FS100 or CinePorter or CityDisk is the only option remaining. Or are there other cheaper options? Also how do they compare? Which one is the cheapest and easiest in terms of worklow: Firestore FS100, CinePorter, CityDisk or any other ? ? ?

CitiDisk is pretty much a non-starter for many people. CinePorter is not yet available (and don't expect to see it this year). Firestore will certainly work (as will the P2Store and a couple of 4gig cards). I "lug" my P2Store around in a medium size fanny pack . . . think mobile.