Do we even need 16gb cards? Not I.

I think Jenny is just saying that many are "fearful" of what they are not familiar with. And the there is no need to be fearful of the reliability of p2 as a recording medium. It is a rock solid recording method. Much more reliable than tape.

The "fear" comes in the transfer process. Transferring to our HDD drives that our prone to failure, etc. But that is where redundancy comes in. Back up your work when it is important. Confirm successful transfers (more so an issue with Macs, for whatever reason).

That pretty much it?

Jason
 
Yes, you summed it up well ! (please apologize my too literate post)

1 - Your data is safer on a small/medium/large P2 than on any other device.
2 - If you drill down the P2 technology, you will be self-convinced and confident.
 
Actually, I have tons of examples from users that show P2 is in fact NOT nearly as reliable as tape. It's new, it fails, it's got weak points no one wants to own up to.

To say P2 is more reliable than tape, that's the most stupid statement I've ever read!

Look at how many of us are having problems importing P2 data! It far out weights the problems that DO NOT exist with tape!

P2 is really falling apart for me, personally. I've lost footage, I've lost time, it's NOT as reliable as tape. If you think otherwise, show me the data to back that up! Current data shows it takes LONGER to transfer than capturing from tape. Takes up MORE disk space, is much more expensive to archive, it's just not as good as tape, period.

My own documentary is going from P2 to tape at this moment, cause we've lost so much due to Panasonic's failed MXF attempt...

Just my two cents...
 
BenB said:
Actually, I have tons of examples from users that show P2 is in fact NOT nearly as reliable as tape. It's new, it fails, it's got weak points no one wants to own up to.

To say P2 is more reliable than tape, that's the most stupid statement I've ever read!

Look at how many of us are having problems importing P2 data! It far out weights the problems that DO NOT exist with tape!

P2 is really falling apart for me, personally. I've lost footage, I've lost time, it's NOT as reliable as tape. If you think otherwise, show me the data to back that up! Current data shows it takes LONGER to transfer than capturing from tape. Takes up MORE disk space, is much more expensive to archive, it's just not as good as tape, period.

My own documentary is going from P2 to tape at this moment, cause we've lost so much due to Panasonic's failed MXF attempt...

Just my two cents...
Click to expand...

Well keep in mind that most of the posts we've seen about people having issues importing data have not *lost* their footage, it was only corrupt when they transfered it. Meaning many of them were able to go back and retrieve it later. This is expecially true with the FCP issue.

Sure, there have been many who have totally lost their footage. But at least with P2, you can offload as often as you want to be sure you don't lose anything. It would get a bit expensive (and slower, btw) to only shoot 4-12min of footage on each DV tape, just to be sure your camera or deck doesn't eat the tape...

But the real issue is that P2 doesn't have moving parts, and it does not care about the temperature, so that makes it a more reliable process than tape.

Personally, I would think that data loss would be about as likely with P2 as with tape, for all of the same reasons you ever get data loss...

You can store data on a RAID 5 array in an offsite data backup center, and any number of factors can still cause you to lose data. Ever had a power-outage during a backup, and your UPS fails? I've also known many people who have complicated backup systems, but when they get a computer virus, they backup the virus-ridden files. The same sorts of issues can happen with P2, or tape, etc.

No storage format is perfect. But P2 gives us the same benefit that Compact Flash and SD gave to digital photograpahy: it takes the risk of data loss out of the realm of common external factors.

Back on topic: 16gb cards would be nice, but for the cost, I think I'll stick with my 4gb cards for the times that I need portability, etc. and get a CinePorter for long format recording.
 
BenB said:
Actually, I have tons of examples from users that show P2 is in fact NOT nearly as reliable as tape. It's new, it fails, it's got weak points no one wants to own up to.

To say P2 is more reliable than tape, that's the most stupid statement I've ever read!

Look at how many of us are having problems importing P2 data! It far out weights the problems that DO NOT exist with tape!

P2 is really falling apart for me, personally. I've lost footage, I've lost time, it's NOT as reliable as tape. If you think otherwise, show me the data to back that up! Current data shows it takes LONGER to transfer than capturing from tape. Takes up MORE disk space, is much more expensive to archive, it's just not as good as tape, period.

My own documentary is going from P2 to tape at this moment, cause we've lost so much due to Panasonic's failed MXF attempt...

Just my two cents...
Click to expand...


WOW Ben! This seems to be a major turn of events. I'm sorry to hear that P2 is not working out for your project. However based on your comments I have to ask if the problem is purely from a P2/MXF card standpoint, or is it more to do with the support infastructure. ie.
Is it the P2 cards that are getting corrupt and losing footage?
or is it the Firestore causing the problems as it seems from your posts you dont even use P2 cards?
or is it FCP or the mac OS causing the problems?
 
I have to say that I have found a lot of the problems experienced are related to the hardware systems people already have and integrating a P2/MXF workflow into it.

I agree with Ben that as a Mac user, I long ago gave up the notion that P2 was cheaper, quicker and easier than tape. I don't agree however that P2 is less reliable, I have found it 100% reliable, hardware and software and users have been the difficult part.

Ben, I would appreciate hearing what has driven you to this drastic position!
 
What a bizarre thread; denouncing a longer recording time ?

Is this guy for real ?

=

Look at how many of us are having problems importing P2 data!
Click to expand...

And look how many are not.

No news is good news, right ? The only ones we are hearing about are the ones having the problem.

Losing data is nothing new in any format.
 
Ben, with respect. That falls into the transfer category. Not the actual reliability of the recording to the p2 device. And, as has been discussed thoroughly, is largely a Mac issue. The footage on the p2 card isn't bad, or corrupt, it's just the process of transferring it (on a mac) that things sometimes go wrong. But if you still have that footage, take it over to a pc, it would probably work first time, everytime.

Jason
 
If you consider securing your valuable MXF file, or any, the RAID level to use is RAID10, not RAID5.
RAID5 is cutting your data in 64k chunks (or whatever size) distributedon your array, with no bandwith advantage.
RAID10 is several RAID1 in parallel: mirroring instead of chunking and the bandwith is the sum of your RAID1 pairs.

There is no bad luck, or black magic in data/content management.
Filmmakers/videographers are more and more IT techie!

Even buying good tapes, wih good prep and safe storage, some of them had defects, but being paranoiac about data integrity, once captured on secured/backuped/antivirused RAID, my files are in peace!

Good luck!
 
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quote from ben "Current data shows it takes LONGER to transfer than capturing from tape."
720 pn takes me 4 or 5 minutes to transfer 10 minutes of footage.While real time obviously would take 10minutes. Also no other camera in that price range records in the same format on tape ,if you compare the hvx to hdv cam the data rate of the hdv is way lower then dvcprohd....so its comparing apple with oranges.

I personnaly would be happy with 2 8gig p2. 40 minutes of 720pn would be perfect for me...
 
John_Hudson said:
What a bizarre thread; denouncing a longer recording time ?

Is this guy for real ?


What exactly is bizzare John? The thread has got a bit off track but if you read the pertinent posts my point was that my preference would be for more cards, not larger cards. Nobody is saying longer recording times are a bad idea. More affordable recording times are a good idea, larger and larger cards, not necessarily so.
Click to expand...
 
Longer recording times ? Larger cards ? Continuous recording for 16mins ?

Bring it on

-

Yeah; it is bizarre.
 
The title of the thread is a little weird in itself, sharing likes/dislikes about "more room to store".

Perhaps, you could conclude by a real poll, if I may?

A pool like this?

"16Gig P2 upcoming release is the next candy for some, and appears to be too big for others. What do you plan to do when they become available?"

When 16Gig P2 arrives:

1) I will buy a couple of them now. My new standard.
2) No, thank you. Too Big. Will stick to 8Gig P2.
3) Great. I wait the 16Gig next price drop.
4) P2 growth put my data at risk. Vade retro Satanas!
 
I have shot 2 features without a single lost clip using only 2 4 gig P2 cards - almost never need to wait for a card on set.

I think the downside of larger P2 cards is the ability to record a lot of crap in between the good moments becuase its easy to. I like the fact that a 10 minute card makes you more conscience about what you are shooting - this makes for lower shooting ratios and then an easier time (if you are shooting smart) in the editing room -

just another perspective on it
 
If you can double the size of your home, are you considering doubling the size of the trash can?

People using DV90Min. / DV120Min. tapes are shooting more crap on them than with DV60Min.?

What about people using 160/320 GB CinePorter ? Planning huge trash?
or FLEXIBILITY ?
 
Jenny - your point is well taken - but my point is that with 10 minute cards and a tight schedule you are FORCED to be more disciplined. With longer record times you MIGHT be disciplined but can also shoot a lot of garbage.

A good shooter, filmaker, dp will use either one well - but smaller cards force the discipline that film workflows require (as opposed to digital). Of course, the first time i shoot on a firestore I will prob say I am never going back to cards :)

And to tack onto your analogy - if you double the size of your home you have more space to store junk, more space to clean, more rooms to heat etc etc
 
If your paper desk was a complete mess, your (computer) desktop will be a BIG MESS.

General motors could listen to you and reduce the car gas tank size to avoid gas wasting.
You would drive better having to go to the pump more often?

When 16Gig will be considered small, you'll redo this speaking of 32Gig.
The best equipment is meaningless without skills and method.

You know what? Your next contract is a long serie of speeches shooting lasting exactly 9 minutes of HD, just 1 minute more than 8Gig P2.
16Gig would be more relaxing!
 
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