Do cheap-ish lights for slow motion exist?

7

70Deep

Active member
I have a shoot coming up that will be utilizing the fs700 / odyssey for 2k slow motion and we're aiming to shoot at 240fps for a scene involving a fight taking place in a room in a house. Considering the light were losing from placing the camera into 240fps, are there any cost effective light we can buy that will cause little to no flicker on a budget of sub 300-400$ per light? As its growing business renting lights is not worth considering as i know lights like these will prove useful on future shoots.

Is this possible? Fully open to buying used lights even a decade old that don't have crazy expensive bulbs. If you know a light has a loud our loudish fan please mention that, as well as, light thats can't plug into normal sockets and require a pack please list that as well. Picures and links are highly encouraged as are specifics like "will work at 1/400th shutter speed" if you happen to have that info.

If you know a light that is a bit more expensive than my range, feel free to list them as such lights might be able to help a bigger company than mine, and maybe I can even hunt those lights down as well n the future.

And for the record, I know the technique of layering clips to reduce the flicker at the cost of ghosting. Not willing to go that route when spending some extra money can solve that problem and will make for a greater scene and happier clients.


Thank you for taking the time to read this post and I hope some of you experienced lighting vets can send some knowledge my way on what might work.
 
What about tungsten lamps? A Mole Baby Jr 2K fresnel probably won't flicker much, if at all, considering the large filament. The general rule is that the larger the filament, the less prone to flicker it is, since it takes longer for the lamp to cool down. Beyond that, crystal sync HMIs should work, since 240 is just a multiple of 24. There's also LEDs from Aadyn, Arri, Mole, and Cineo to consider.

Tungsten is the cheapest, HMIs are more, and quality LEDs (that don't flicker) are even more expensive. You can typically rent tungsten lamps for cheap, and find them used inexpensively, too.
 
I like using mole's and that was the exact light I meant when I said I wad open to buying decade old lights but a mole bj would probably pop the breaker as it isn't the newest house and I believe normal sockets will only take 15-20 amps and the BJ's have been known to blow that. Needless to say I've learned running multiples of these lights without a generator probably isn't a good idea but I appreciate the recommendation.

I pretty much figured in this price range I was stuck in the tungsten range, but would you happen to know any less expensive hmi's that might fit the bill?
 
Not really trying to rent at this stage unless its lenses because they make a huge difference and i certainly intend to do more indoor slow mo so owning these lights would be quite helpful. Thank you for that video mark, there really was no notable flicker what so ever. What version of the divas did you use for that take? Or would they all produce such a result rears less of size and power?
 
70Deep said:
I have a shoot coming up that will be utilizing the fs700 / odyssey for 2k slow motion and we're aiming to shoot at 240fps for a scene involving a fight taking place in a room in a house. Considering the light were losing from placing the camera into 240fps, are there any cost effective light we can buy that will cause little to no flicker on a budget of sub 300-400$ per light?
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Probably not. The problem is that mains frequency is either 50 or 60 Hz. This gives a tungsten filament time to ramp up to temperature and then cool back off. Hard to believe, but you'll see it if your shooting at 240 fps. Even a big tungsten (2K or so) will show this.

You can probably find a balasted light (HMI, fluorescent) that can get you to 240 fps, but I'm not sure what they are. And... they'll almost certainly exceed your budget.

Your best bet is probably to look for a deflicker plugin for your NLE software. That's what the big boys are using (you see it all the time in sports broadcasting -- watch the NCAA Basketball Final Fours and the slow motion replays are running through a deflicker system (hardware in this case). Not perfect, but they've gotten pretty darn good in the last couple of years (they are running frame rates well over 1000 fps, and under general venue lighting HMIs). Deflicter softwear is also useful for the opposite: for the frame-to-frame variance in timelapse.
 
You simply are not going to find the lights for purchase in your price range. Maybe one lamp, but that's it, and that's not particularly useful for your task. There are times when renting does make sense. You're only other alternative is to use DC-powered lights such as a simple tungsten car headlight bounced into a wall or pushed through diffusion. Get some car batteries and a way to recharge the cells.
 
70Deep said:
I have a shoot coming up that will be utilizing the fs700 / odyssey for 2k slow motion and we're aiming to shoot at 240fps for a scene involving a fight taking place in a room in a house. Considering the light were losing from placing the camera into 240fps, are there any cost effective light we can buy that will cause little to no flicker on a budget of sub 300-400$ per light? As its growing business renting lights is not worth considering as i know lights like these will prove useful on future shoots.

Is this possible? Fully open to buying used lights even a decade old that don't have crazy expensive bulbs. If you know a light has a loud our loudish fan please mention that, as well as, light thats can't plug into normal sockets and require a pack please list that as well. Picures and links are highly encouraged as are specifics like "will work at 1/400th shutter speed" if you happen to have that info.

If you know a light that is a bit more expensive than my range, feel free to list them as such lights might be able to help a bigger company than mine, and maybe I can even hunt those lights down as well n the future.

And for the record, I know the technique of layering clips to reduce the flicker at the cost of ghosting. Not willing to go that route when spending some extra money can solve that problem and will make for a greater scene and happier clients.


Thank you for taking the time to read this post and I hope some of you experienced lighting vets can send some knowledge my way on what might work.
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Just fix it in post.... using this http://www.digitalanarchy.com/Flicker/main.html or this http://revisionfx.com/products/deflicker/

That's what I did for a shoot that was 100% unplanned without any tech scouting, or extra lights available, zip nadda nothing. I had horrible flicker from overhead flo's in a washroom we were shooting a scene in and this plugin totally fixed it for us.
 
Mark Bolding said:
I would go with Kino Diva's or knockoffs. I shot a test for this very subject a couple of years ago with my 3 of my Cool Lights fluorescent fixtures at 240 fps with no flicker. https://vimeo.com/83277797
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This is exactly what I did too.

And my results are the same - flicker free extra light that's soft, doesn't get hot nor pop the circuit breakers.
I use Osram bulbs with a 1/8 minus green over the fixtures and they have never been anything but super helpful.
 
Take this with caution, as I haven't done a paid job involving high speed with them, but I have found the 150-watt ceramic metal halide stuff to be flicker free up to 960fps. This is based on a casual test with an FS7, and I didn't get a chance to expose a grey card, punch up contrast and fast-forward through to look minutely for banding, but it looks pretty good on a monitor. Note that this only holds with electronic ballasts, and it may only hold with some electronic ballasts, but I have seen reasonably encouraging results.

ETC's Source Four PAR HID may satisfy these requirements, but they're fairly pricy.

I believe Cool Lights makes 150W CMH fresnels, and I assume they use electronic ballasts. Perhaps Richard can chime in with his thoughts on this.

They can also be made very cheaply by purchasing the Chinese knockoffs like these from Ebay and replacing the ballast with something like this (I'm reasonably sure that type was OK), which is a fairly basic rewiring job that can be done (at their own risk, naturally) by any reasonably competent individual. The best lamps for them emit 4200K light, although there are also warmer and cooler options. Bolt on a junior pin and off you go.

The total cost for that, including a new bulb, is well under £75/US$100. Factor in lenses and barn doors if you feel the need.

Downsides: they are not hot restrike, and they're only 150W, but in a PAR shell they're about as bright as a 500-600W tungsten would have been. The fixture is efficient and with the narrow spot lenses, they are intense.

Edit - actually, wait, I have done an overcranked job with them, on an Ursa Mini 4K, at, if I recall, 120fps. Seemed OK, though that's a global-shutter camera, which mitigates one potential source of trouble.

P
 
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For 150 watts, there's a little ballast on Amazon that's struck everything I've thrown at it. But that's not much light for slowmo.
 
70Deep said:
Not really trying to rent at this stage unless its lenses because they make a huge difference and i certainly intend to do more indoor slow mo so owning these lights would be quite helpful. Thank you for that video mark, there really was no notable flicker what so ever. What version of the divas did you use for that take? Or would they all produce such a result rears less of size and power?
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I did not have actual Kino Flo Diva's, I was using Cool Lights knockoff of the Diva which was 1 two bulb fixture and 2 four bulb fixtures. My guess is that any fluorescent Kino or knockoff would give you the same flicker free result but without proper testing that is just a guess. The Cool Lights sell in the $300 to $600 range plus roughly $20 per extra bulb so I guess it is slightly outside your stated budget but worth consideration. I would not be surprised if similar, even lower priced options from Impact, Flolight etc. would give the same result but obviously any fixture must be tested. I'm kind of surprised no one has suggested LED lights as an option because I had heard these would be flicker free as well. I just shot a quick test with my 2 cheap, small lights; a Z96 camera light and an old Cool Lights 256 that is out of production now and the results are pretty good in my opinion. Follow this link to judge for yourself. https://vimeo.com/161042628
 
The issue for the OP is that we're talking a fight scene at 1/400th - if this were tabletop closeups maybe LEDs and Kinos would work, but if he wants to light a full room and stay below 1200 iso or so… I just can't see that cutting it. Well, maybe a wall of kino knockoffs if they're solid at that speed.

Time to hit the rental house and look at HMIs that will run on house current. Bring your camera and you'll know if they flicker or not.

Is this really an entire fight scene at 240 FPS? Like, a 3-minute fight becomes a half hour? Sounds like an art film!
 
Well Michael, I guess our reading comprehension skills are taking you and I to different places because my takeaway from the OP was that he did not want to rent and he wanted low cost options for flicker free shooting. In my opinion, based on the fact that I own the camera in question and have done tests with the lights I listed, I feel with my advice was sound. I'm not sure if you looked at my beer pour test I provided a link to, but I think that would be overlit for a fight scene. Perhaps the reason you "just can't see that cutting it " is that you have not done any such testing and are just typing what you think is right. Without knowing room size, mood of scene and lighting plan it is all just speculation.
 
The KINO Diva clones also come in a 6-bulb size.
I was on a set not long ago where a guy had 3 of those as the sole lighting tools, and I was surprised how much light they were putting out.
And since you don't HAVE TO diffuse those things you don't immediately start losing light power.

2 of those equals 3 of the 4-bulb Divas in a pretty easy to manage fixture.

For a low price without building your own, I think it's these, or Red Heads and Blondes, or Arri knock-off 1,000w Fresnels. But again - three of those are probably going to need diffusion thus losing light power while still retaining all the heat and circuit popping power.
 
Mark Bolding said:
Well Michael, I guess our reading comprehension skills are taking you and I to different places because my takeaway from the OP was that he did not want to rent and he wanted low cost options for flicker free shooting. In my opinion, based on the fact that I own the camera in question and have done tests with the lights I listed, I feel with my advice was sound. I'm not sure if you looked at my beer pour test I provided a link to, but I think that would be overlit for a fight scene. Perhaps the reason you "just can't see that cutting it " is that you have not done any such testing and are just typing what you think is right. Without knowing room size, mood of scene and lighting plan it is all just speculation.
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Yes, I'm sure I have reading comprehension problems, brain damage and so on. But I don't need to test a shoot at 1/400th with a total of ten Biax tubes to be concerned about enough light - and I wasn't responding to your post in particular, but the various thoughts of 150 HIDs, 1k fresnels, redheads and so on (not to mention LEDs, someone in the thread posted a real gloomy noise-fest that was, at least, an interesting test for flicker). If I had the need for a wall of 4 and 6 tube biax and just wanted soft light, I could get several quads for the OP's budget. Having lit scenes that needed some 'drama' or visual interest at 1/60th in an average room or studio set, my experience is that I'd want a 575 or 1.2 HMI par or 2, and I'd spend less than a hundred bucks a day (but then, I have enough biax for the time being and wouldn't buy a bunch more - kind of a pain to haul around, a couple duals and quads is all I'd personally want to own these days vs. a pile of six-banks. Another year or so and affordable LEDS should surpass the quads' usefulness and value anyway). If there are windows involved, I'd up them-there rentals (that's my lack of writing comprehension kicking in, it's like tourettes without the profanity). It's going to be difficult for anyone to test a big pile of biax quads unless they have local rentals and want to spend and transport for a day to see what you get lumens-wise. Testing an HMI for flicker would take a minute at the rental house, and sussing out how many you needed would be a mix of experience and math.

My summation of all the comments with "maybe rent some HMIs" wasn't a shot at you, your cool lights and LEDs and slowmo testing, or any reading incomprehesion symptoms you may share with me. Kinda sounded like another path to consider.
 
Sorry for the delay in responses but i became very sick and was sleeping the majority of every day trying to recover which thankfully I have.

Thank you all so much for the wonderful inputs and links! I really can't thank you guys enough for your suggestions, ideas, applications and stories of what's worked for each of you guys. Really makes me feel proud to be a member of such a powerful forum. I hope to be able to pass it forward to others on what I know the way you guys have.

Thanks again all
 
Well, I wasn't suggesting that the entire thing be lit with one 150W light, but they're cheap enough to rank up.
 
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