Digital Projection - eCinema, a few questions

[MovieSwede]

Now: If you're from an NTSC country: Don't comment! This discussion doesn't affect you. And if you defend Panasonic without any substantial reasons any longer, you will sound like a fanboy.

Edelweiss, off.

Do I sound like I am from NTSC country???

 

[Barry_Green]

But here, the quality is just out of reach because Panasonic cuts corners.

Quite inflammatory language. Would it not be more fair to say that they set a price target, and obviously in order to meet that price target they obviously can't include everything? I mean, where's the 2/3" chips? Did they "cut corners" on that? Etc.

They don't listen to customers.

Okay, if I was Pookie, I'd answer this with three letters: LOL. Come on, Panasonic has been the most responsive company to their customers.

Same CCD on NTSC and PAL: check

Says who?

Same DSP on NTSC and PAL: check

Says who?

Same D2 drive on NTSC and PAL: check

Says who? I mean, this one probably is true, but -- says who?

Adding "partial NTSC with 24p support" to the PAL HVX: Just a matter of copying software from the NTSC to the PAL camera.

Says who? I mean, really. Sorry if I take offense to this, but as a programmer when people would say "just add this feature, how hard can it be" well... let's just say I've got plenty of gray hair from hearing that. If it was easy to do we'd do it, but there's no way that outsiders can dictate to them how easy it is to do something!

If the unit was designed from the ground up to do that, then yes it'd probably be easy. But in the history of all camcorders, would you care to elaborate on how many are NTSC/PAL switchable? Here, I'll save you the trouble: ONE. Only one. Only the Sony Z1. The XL H1 apparently can have an upgrade applied, but it isn't even out yet. And the JVC HD100 can't do PAL and NTSC in the same unit, although it does support the MPEG-2 HDV rates universally.

So, now let's recapitulate: 24p is the holy grail of filmmaking, not only in the US, but also in PAL countries. Is there a good reason why 24p is not in the PAL HVX?

HELL NO!

With all due respect, you are completely unqualified to make that judgement call. So am I, but at least I recognize it. Please don't go making unfounded inflammatory statements like this, because you have no basis for information to dictate to the engineers how easy (or not easy) adding certain features is.

Now: If you're from an NTSC country: Don't comment! This discussion doesn't affect you. And if you defend Panasonic without any substantial reasons any longer, you will sound like a fanboy.

Call me a fanboy if you want, but facts is facts, and the simple fact is: you don't have the facts that you're claiming here. You're stirring up anger based on unfounded proclamations.

 

[Emanuel]

(...)you are completely unqualified to make that judgement call. So am I, but at least I recognize it. Please don't go making unfounded inflammatory statements like this, because you have no basis for information to dictate to the engineers how easy (or not easy) adding certain features is.


Call me a fanboy if you want, but facts is facts, and the simple fact is: you don't have the facts that you're claiming here. You're stirring up anger based on unfounded proclamations.

About this inflammatory - indeed! - but healthy - I hope so! - debate, I'm out, because, I don't have technical background to say this or that...I only ask...or I infer!

Concerning:

So, now let's recapitulate: 24p is the holy grail of filmmaking, not only in the US, but also in PAL countries. Is there a good reason why 24p is not in the PAL HVX?

With all due respect that you, Barry, already know that I have regarding your technical knowledge and your work here, I only say that Edelweiss is completely right (and I'm not his fanboy :cheesy: :laugh: Yes, I know that nobody said or can say that!... :kiss: ).

I just don't have, right now, statistic basis to pronounce that all we know
- that work @ filmmaking (and I'm in this adventure since some time ago and in all playgrounds) -
and (t)here it is the genesis (well...even a "sacred word" to moderate the dispute) of this thread. I must quote redindian and i'm not @ church :huh: :

'24P is universal'...meaning it can be translated to ANY format... is that true ? So I shoot here, for projecting in India...?

...to conclude, quoting myself: «Why not?»

 

[MovieSwede]

A little question, how you gonna edit 24FPS footage shot in a DVCPROHD 50i stream???

 

[Barry_Green]

A little question, how you gonna edit 24FPS footage shot in a DVCPROHD 50i stream???

You can't. Well, furthermore, you couldn't even record it at all, because the 50i and 60i codecs use different pixel grids and different per-frame bit allocations. You'd have to include the 60i codec in the camera as well and switch between them.

And you can't put 25p within the 60p stream because 60p isn't 60p, it's 59.94p, whereas 25p is actually 25.00. So you'd need different crystals and different timebases. You'd have to do it the same way the Sony does, which is to actually (apparently) have different crystals and re-boot the camera into the opposite mode. Which is the same thing the JVC does -- you can have 24 or 30, no problem. When you want to go to 25 you have to reboot the system into a different operating mode.

So could it be done for some future release? Maybe. Probably. Will it be done in the HVX200? Not a chance. It's not going to happen. Continuing to complain about it will accomplish nothing. Instead of ranting about something that frankly isn't gonna happen, why not redirect your energies towards something that actually COULD happen? For example, someday a year or two from now there might be an HVX200A. Could it be engineered to allow for this type of capability? Maybe. But the HVX200 itself is not and cannot be simply adapted. So why not start lobbying Panasonic UK to include dual-boot capability in the whenever-it's-to-appear HVX200A? That might actually get some results. But there is no possible chance of any type whatsoever that the HVX200 will have 25p in the US model, or 24p in the European model. It will not happen.

 

[SPZ]

Quite inflammatory language. Would it not be more fair to say that they set a price target, and obviously in order to meet that price target they obviously can't include everything? I mean, where's the 2/3" chips? Did they "cut corners" on that? Etc.


Okay, if I was Pookie, I'd answer this with three letters: LOL. Come on, Panasonic has been the most responsive company to their customers.


Says who?


Says who?


Says who? I mean, this one probably is true, but -- says who?


Says who? I mean, really. Sorry if I take offense to this, but as a programmer when people would say "just add this feature, how hard can it be" well... let's just say I've got plenty of gray hair from hearing that. If it was easy to do we'd do it, but there's no way that outsiders can dictate to them how easy it is to do something!

If the unit was designed from the ground up to do that, then yes it'd probably be easy. But in the history of all camcorders, would you care to elaborate on how many are NTSC/PAL switchable? Here, I'll save you the trouble: ONE. Only one. Only the Sony Z1. The XL H1 apparently can have an upgrade applied, but it isn't even out yet. And the JVC HD100 can't do PAL and NTSC in the same unit, although it does support the MPEG-2 HDV rates universally.


With all due respect, you are completely unqualified to make that judgement call. So am I, but at least I recognize it. Please don't go making unfounded inflammatory statements like this, because you have no basis for information to dictate to the engineers how easy (or not easy) adding certain features is.


Call me a fanboy if you want, but facts is facts, and the simple fact is: you don't have the facts that you're claiming here. You're stirring up anger based on unfounded proclamations.

Doesn't seem like the Canon is natively supporting switchable signals. An upgrade as to be applied- was it designed from the ground up to support this? I don't know, but it sure is a feature that isn't included at the standard package. It seems strangely easy to include as an option, tough JVC could have the feature, but, like Panasonic - is it a coincidence they are under the same Parent company (matsushita)- they seem not to include it. It Probably is too hard to do in "Program" therms...

Market proteccioniosm is there to help brand distributors to protect their market (like the word says). Panasonic is a terrible marketing machine Worldwide, with many private companies representing their products without much "grip"from "parent" Panasonic Japan. The closest division seems to be Panasonic USA, which provides a brilliant job. In order for the other markets to keep their share, it is important not to have an Universal camera. Sony as a much more controled representation and distribution channel, as well as Canon (but their videocamera representation here in HK is crap ), which permits better worldwide control and profits distribution. So not much worldwide profit loss. JVC, on the other hand, well, you know ...

What does this mean? Blame it on bad worldwide marketing and distribution from Panasonic, but I believe we are only getting these "bellow the competition" features because this marketing anarchy that is Panasonic Worldwide.

In an ending note: let's see what the ccd's are. It doesn't make commercial sense to make two diferent cameras with two different internal designs for both markets, which would simply make for a lot more expenses in the production line. They can make a claim to counter this argument by misteriously adding or removing something (useless), but time will tell...

 

[harddrive]

But in the history of all camcorders, would you care to elaborate on how many are NTSC/PAL switchable? Here, I'll save you the trouble: ONE. Only one. Only the Sony Z1.

As we move into the High Definition era, the terms NTSC/PAL need to be dropped as they only have relevance for the downconverted analogue outputs. In the SD era, a US camera would have a recording of a 720x480 matrix 30 times a second, a European camera a 720x576 matrix 25 times a second.

With HD all that changes. The recorded matrix is not fixed by geography, but more by manufacturer - some preferring 720, others 1080. It becomes much easier with HD to make global cameras - same matrix, just different field /frame rates.

The terms NTSC/PAL only refer to SD. They only refer to analogue. They have no relevance to digital HD and only serve to confuse. Lets talk about 50/60Hz models.

 

[MovieSwede]

As we move into the High Definition era, the terms NTSC/PAL need to be dropped as they only have relevance for the downconverted analogue outputs. In the SD era, a US camera would have a recording of a 720x480 matrix 30 times a second, a European camera a 720x576 matrix 25 times a second.

With HD all that changes. The recorded matrix is not fixed by geography, but more by manufacturer - some preferring 720, others 1080. It becomes much easier with HD to make global cameras - same matrix, just different field /frame rates.

The terms NTSC/PAL only refer to SD. They only refer to analogue. They have no relevance to digital HD and only serve to confuse. Lets talk about 50/60Hz models.

Yes but the legacy of PAL NTSC lives on. even if we have the same res we still have 23.97p - 24p - 25p - 29,97p - 50i - 59,97i plus that we have 720 and 1080 to choose by.

But there is really only 3 universal fps thats 23,97 24 and 25.