Digital Projection - eCinema, a few questions

[redindian]

Lets say I want to shoot movies to be digitally projected in cinema halls
[Aiming for Indian market - many theaters have already started downloading movies into Qube Server and projecting it on screen without DVDs/Films !! + I am originally from India]

Aim:
I want to buy a HD(V) camera which does this best. Hone the process, and shoot movies next year

Why:
A Low Budget film shot in HD, commands both respect (in media) and also makes it easier to make a movie with a powerful desktop (F/X, editing, post).

[glow=red,2,300]And it looks spectacular on screen[/glow]
Questions:

• For movies, is there a difference between NTSC/PAL. Do movies shown in PAL countries run at 25fps as opposed to 24fps ? So 24P is irrelavent ?
  
• If HDX100, doesnt offer NTSC/PAL switch - is it a big disadvantage or a simple matter of 24P > PAL conversion
  
• '24P is universal'...meaning it can be translated to ANY format... is that true ? So I shoot here, for projecting in India...?

I donno the correct questions to ask, but am very excited... almost feeling like '96 when internet was starting...

So throw curveballs, and provide answers/alternatives if possible

Relavant Links:
Digital film projection: good and bad news
http://www.real-image.com/digital/diginews/020501.asp

Bollywood warming up to eCinema
http://www.real-image.com/digital/diginews/120401.asp

 

[MovieSwede]

Questions:

• For movies, is there a difference between NTSC/PAL. Do movies shown in PAL countries run at 25fps as opposed to 24fps ? So 24P is irrelavent ?
  
• If HDX100, doesnt offer NTSC/PAL switch - is it a big disadvantage or a simple matter of 24P > PAL conversion
  
• '24P is universal'...meaning it can be translated to ANY format... is that true ? So I shoot here, for projecting in India...?

The rules of shooting NTSC and PAL for Film/filmlook. Shoot 24P when you have NTSC and 25P when you have PAL. You can very easy go from 24 to 25 and 25 to 24. And yes all PAL movies goes at 25P when you watch them on DVD.

Yes 24P is very universal. All movies shoot on film is shoot 24fps.


If you live in PAL land buy PAL, In NTSC land buy NTSC. The 24/25 fps isnt really a big issue if you shoot for a cinema movie.

 

[Emanuel]

(A)

You can very easy go from 24 to 25 and 25 to 24.

Easy?!

«Speed up (24p --> 25p) it's not the same of the opposite (25p --> 24p); the effect will not be the same!
[there are different results - an "european time" would be speedy increase instead of the slowdown, if not the majority of the american audiences will say «this is even more boring than something I could think up!...» ]»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10
Post#225

Nothing wrong with the format, but to go theatrical you have to convert. And after the conversion you'll definitely see the difference between 24p and 25p-converted-to-24p:
- There's slomo in it that makes it look less "real" (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- There are sound problems: Either you get pitch-shifting artifacts (really nasty) or the voices are a quarter note deeper, which is very noticably subconsiously: Tiny men sound like Pavarotti and slender female models sound like Dame Edna (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- If you're going the route of keeping the speed, at which point there are no sound issues, there are major sharpness issues or the image "jumps" every second.

That's what's wrong.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=22&pp=10
Post#220

(...)And don't get me started about either mangling the sound through a pitch converter or living with a lower pitch for everything. 24p is the way to go and if the HVX doesn't has it, I'm majorly dissapointed.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=29&pp=10
Post#282

Please explain me how do you think you gonna edit your 24p footage on your Pal equipment. I guess you better move to a NTSC land or just buy NTSC equipments.

With any NLE system. If the camera supports 24P, than it can be used to record the output from the NLE. As for monitoring, my plasma will do. It's pal and Ntsc compatible (1080/50i and 1080/60i compatible)

Have any of you tried slowing down 25p to 24p and actually seen the results? Well I have, and it sure ain't pretty. I did a promotional video on the Pal dvx100 in 25p and had to downconvert it to ntsc 24p. I had to pay $300 for the conversion in a pro post house, and the results even on hardware conversion where a lot worse than on the native 25P. So please try it first ntsc guys. Than you'll see what we are talking about.

Besides, «I think that the human (emotions) perception can change if it is playedback @ 24 or 25 frames. Even unconsciously. That's for this reason the majority says: it's non-noticeable @ "conscience" level. But we must know there are a lot of hidden issues that not even the business experts know why A succeed & B not. That's why we call it as an art form and not only as business.»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10
Post#229

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.

Cheers!

(B)

Yes 24P is very universal. All movies shoot on film is shoot 24fps.

That's why WE (I'm not alone) ask for it. I don't see any NTSC guy ask sadly for 25p/50i besides the rental ones...

 

[MovieSwede]

A NTSC guy dont ask for it because he has really no use for it. A European on the other hand does.

You will have to slow down or speed up no matter what if you planning to realese a movie both on the cinemas and on DVD, tv etc.

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

 

[Emanuel]

A NTSC guy dont ask for it because he has really no use for it. A European on the other hand does.

Why will it be? And there isn't any solution from Panasonic unless a double purchase?

You will have to slow down or speed up no matter what if you planning to realese a movie both on the cinemas and on DVD, tv etc.

As you can see mentioned above...

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

In that particular point, I agree with you...but it's a question of perfectionism for who sees the "cinema" as an art form where all the details are very important, OK?!

I have a challenge for you or will we have another FABNAQ?...

As you know, film has 24fps even in Europe. Currently, we european guys would have to invest in the double amount of money (get both a PAL and and NTSC camera) to enjoy true, hi-quality 24p (...) it seems, could be solved with simple software.

(...)I just bought both HVX 24p/60i and 25p/50i.

And I'll make a decision about what camcorder I must choose for my project - big screen & DVD* release equal = my business plan is unquestionable: fifty fifty 50% for big screen 50% for DVD release; and TV* broadcasting later but 'cause that is an arthouse production, this medium is forgotten in the business plan .
I only can shoot once and it's not possible shoot with both cams since we are indies. Last but not least, there isn't slow motion (well then, not all the movies have slow motion...).

What will it be better option?

* mostly PAL but also NTSC

 

[MovieSwede]

Fabnaq?

 

[Emanuel]

...

(...)Frequently Asked But Never Answered Questions (FABNAQ). Any similarity with an important event/media show @ Vegas is purely a coincidence.

 

[Emanuel]

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

<PS> It's also a question (the 2nd one) of a real perception not a stupid name for a propaganda pseudo-blog [the blogosphere was the ultimate place for the freedom - as you well know as a true scandinavian that I'm sure you are - until this farce...]

 

[MovieSwede]

Ok if you have both cam and want filmout without slowmotion. Go with 25P. Even if the framerate isnt perfect for film you will get more resolution with the DVCPROHD codec. (1440*1080)

 

[Emanuel]

Thanks for your answer - I'm following your POV, MovieSwede - but I'm not so convinced...yet.

[1st problem]
What do you think about audio pitch problems - or its possibility - during the 25p -> 24p/film-out conversion?

[2nd problem]

If:

A)
25p
is not the same than, that is worst/videoisher [at least @ my eyes*]
25p -> film-out -> 25p
also
24p -> 25p
is not the same than, that is worst/videoisher than [at least @ my eyes*]
24p -> film-out -> 25p

so, do you think that:

AA)
25p (1440x1080)
will it be better than
24p (1280x1080) -> film-out -> 25p (or even 24p without frame conversion)?

or

AB)
25p (1440x1080) -> 24p only for film-out -> film-out -> 25p
will it be better than ['cause the resolution?]
24p (1280x1080) -> film-out -> 25p (or even 24p without frame conversion)?


*maybe it's not a question of numbers

 

[harddrive]

Go with 25P. Even if the framerate isnt perfect for film you will get more resolution with the DVCPROHD codec. (1440*1080)

For 1080p the DVCPRO HD spec is 1280x1080. 1440x1080 is the matrix used by HDV2 and HDCAM, HDCAM SR gives the full square pixel resolution (1920x1080) - if you can afford it.

I think as we move into HD it's time to drop the terms "NTSC" and "PAL" - strictly speaking, they aren't even relevant to SD digital systems. By definiton they refer to the way colour information is carried on an analogue system. A 480i DV recording could be NTSC in the US or Japan, PAL in Brazil (PAL-M). Better to refer to "50Hz" or "60Hz" countries.

The perspective from a 50Hz country is that 24p is of very little interest, unless the sole purpose is for a film transfer. With digital projection starting to ramp up, even that's becoming less significant. By and large 25p would be used over here anyway - that would be optimim for TV/digital projection, and a slight slowing down if transferred to film and projected - but that's less and less the case. All films are transmitted on Tv at 25fps, and it's never been a worry - whereas people from the 50Hz world tend not to like the 3:2 pull down effect. I think a lot depends on what you've grown up with.......

From what I'm hearing, in Europe, broadcasters are likely to use 1080i/25 or 720p/50 and transmitted probaly with H264. Drama may well be originated 1080p/25 and transmitted in an interlace fashion - I believe the official term is 1080psf/25, standing for "progressive, segmented field". (Note also that the terminology changed a little while back, the second number now ALWAYS stands for frames, and NEVER fields. Hence 1080i/25 refers to an interlace system with 25 frames, 50 fields/second.)

The eventual "Holy Grail" is seen as 1080p/50, likely to be achieved firstly for origination, maybe later for distribution.

By and large, we're surprised by the amount of interest in 24p in the States, probably assuming that things would go the same way, though obviously with 30/60 in place of 25/50 in the above figures. Over here the biggest negative seen with the HD100 is that it only does 25p to tape, not 50p.

It's worth mentioning that over here all modern HD displays AFAIK will adapt to either frame standard, feed them 25 or 50p and they're happy, equally so with 30 or 60p.

 

[MovieSwede]

For 1080p the DVCPRO HD spec is 1280x1080. 1440x1080 is the matrix used by HDV2 and HDCAM, HDCAM SR gives the full square pixel resolution (1920x1080) - if you can afford it.

Yes DVCPROHD codec is 100 mbs for a 60i 1080 signal.

But the PAL version will be 100mbs for a 50i 1080 signal.


So the PAL will have more bandwith per frame then the NTSC version. That why it have 1440*1080.


As for Emanuel. If you have a hard time decide how you want to shot.

Just shoot 25P - edit- dialogsound - 24P - sound effects - music.

That would give decent sound quality.

 

[Emanuel]

As for Emanuel. If you have a hard time decide how you want to shot.

It's important spend this time... BTW I'd like to listen to you answer my 25p/24p thoughts mentioned above.

Just shoot 25P - edit- dialogsound - 24P - sound effects - music.

That would give decent sound quality.

Sorry, but can you be more specific? Like a latin one? 'cause I think the problem is not so simple and the audio pitch will not be the same speed up or slow down, even only 4%.

I remember you:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10
Post#225

Nothing wrong with the format, but to go theatrical you have to convert. And after the conversion you'll definitely see the difference between 24p and 25p-converted-to-24p:
- There's slomo in it that makes it look less "real" (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- There are sound problems: Either you get pitch-shifting artifacts (really nasty) or the voices are a quarter note deeper, which is very noticably subconsiously: Tiny men sound like Pavarotti and slender female models sound like Dame Edna (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- If you're going the route of keeping the speed, at which point there are no sound issues, there are major sharpness issues or the image "jumps" every second.

That's what's wrong.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10
Post#229

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.

 

[MovieSwede]

Personally i thin edelweiss is making a little to big fuss about this.

I never remebered anybody complained on the sound in 28 days later. The picture but not the sound.


But test yourself converting soundfiles with a 4% slowmo. And hear for yourself.

 

[Emanuel]

I never remebered anybody complained on the sound in 28 days later. The picture but not the sound.

A little bit difference: They record the sound separately and not with a regular method for an indy production that needs to take advantage of the uncompressed 4 channels in-camera... That's why our concern. And yours?

 

[MovieSwede]

They still had to slowmo even if they recorded seperetly.

But make a testfile.

 

[Emanuel]

They still had to slowmo even if they recorded seperetly..

How and why? If they didn't need it!

 

[MovieSwede]

because even if they shot seperetly from audio. That isnt the same as putting all dialog in post. So if they recorded audio seperetly. They still have a lipsync that match the 25p footage.

 

[Edelweiss]

MovieSwede, the question here is not "can it be done?", but "is it as good as possible?". Clearly, 25p can be converted to 24p. But the quality is worse. Why does hollywood film in 24p instead of 25p and then convert it to 24p? Answer me that! Or I'll answer it for you: because filming in the target fps is always better, that's why.

So now that we have established that 24p would be good in a PAL HVX, let's ask ourselves how difficult it would be to add it. If it is indeed very difficult, we are happy without it, cause the better quality is out of our reach for a good reason we can understand.

But here, the quality is just out of reach because Panasonic cuts corners.

They don't listen to customers.

They don't care about our wishes enough.

Same CCD on NTSC and PAL: check
Same DSP on NTSC and PAL: check
Same D2 drive on NTSC and PAL: check

Adding "partial NTSC with 24p support" to the PAL HVX: Just a matter of copying software from the NTSC to the PAL camera. But do the do it: NO.

So, now let's recapitulate: 24p is the holy grail of filmmaking, not only in the US, but also in PAL countries. Is there a good reason why 24p is not in the PAL HVX?

HELL NO!

That's what's wrong with the HVX. Panasonic cuts corners on an element that is absolutely needed around here.

Now: If you're from an NTSC country: Don't comment! This discussion doesn't affect you. And if you defend Panasonic without any substantial reasons any longer, you will sound like a fanboy.

Edelweiss, off.

 

[Edelweiss]

Hey everybody, just posted this to the defperception/official hvx blog:

Hi Tosh, I'd like to come back to a question I asked earlier about 24p support in PAL cameras (in the FireStore article). You said:

"It is about (..) working with AC current"
This is absolutely no argument why you couldn't add 24p support on a camera that runs off a 50Hz grid. In most cases, the camera will be running off batteries anyway, where there are no differences between 50Hz and 60Hz current: batteries deliver DC. And when it runs off AC current, it will internally downconvert that current to DC anyway, in both the PAL and NTSC versions. Heck, it's even very likely the HVX has a power supply that works 50-60Hz, 100-240 Volt, like most other electronic appliances nowadays. So, it can't be the differences in power.

Going on:
"It is about synchronizing the signal. (...) The way the engineers explained it to me was that the audio is the problem, and keeping it locked up and importable into a system that supports NTSC and in your case PAL. 60 frames is not supported in PAL products, 24 frames isn't either. So in the case of NTSC , the audio would come in at 24.976, nothing works that way and in your case the audio would come in at 23.976 and nothing there works that way"

Three counterclaims for this one:
1. We PAL folks would be very happy to live with an FCP import stage HVX -> NTSC -> 24p to get at the 24p signal inside. We have the equipment to work with 24p, it's all computers anyway. What we are expecting from Panasonic, and we are really counting on them here, is this: since all 3 major components CCD, DSP and D2 drive are the same in PAL and NTSC, we are expecting you to add "partial NTSC support" to the camera, to copy over the 24p and 60p code from the NTSC camera to the PAL camera to allow us get those modes. Copy = no big engineering effort. Maybe add a little note to those modes in the fps selection screen: 24 (*NTSC). That's what we are expecting. When there is a good reason that 24p is indeed very difficult to achieve on a PAL P2 camera, we would not complain, but in this case, it looks not difficult at all, which is why we don't like the current feature set. It looks like you're not doing it because you don't like going just the extra 3 yards.

2. You're creating arbitrary borders here. It's digital, Panasonic. We don't need no PAL or NTSC anymore. We just need picture files on a memory module. If you can't add the "partial NTSC support" described above to the PAL camera (which would be definitely the easiest way, btw), just let the camera output numbered jpgs 24 times or 60 times per second to the memory card, along with a aiff file for the soundtrack and we would be already pretty happy.

3. Now, here comes the killer argument against your description: 720p has variable framerates from 1-60 frames per second on the varicam (same file format) and already confirmed 22p and 26p for the 24p-NTSC camera. So it's possible for Panasonic to add framerates a bit faster or a bit slower to the NTSC version. Now, please, Matt, would you tell me, why Panasonic add these additional frame rates easily:
24p -> 22p
24p -> 26p
...yet this additional frame rate is very difficult to add:
25p -> 24p
It just doesn't go into my head! Why can you go down and up 2 but can't go down 1? It boggles my mind! I thought very hard, and I'm with an engineering background too, but believe me, I really can't come up with a reason why you guys wouldn't be able to add a simple 720p24 mode to the 720p25 cam.

Again, I'm crossposting this, would be great to hear back from you. Thanks again,
Pete

Let's see if we get something back
Cheers, Pete