FEATURE: DEUCE OF SPADES - How I made a period full feature film all by myself on ZERO budget

wileypen said:
Funny, I've found that pros are the most helpful, because they don't have anything to prove. On the other hand, I've found some amateurs can be jealous and try to pull you back down to their level if you threaten to rise above them.
Click to expand...

I agree with that actually. I've benefitted from lots of help from very professional people to get my film off the ground. Our team has experience doing many multi-million-dollar features and they're all highly experienced industry veterans, but because of a good script, good personal relationships with them, and them just being generally cool people, we've got high-class pros aboard for indie prices. Sometimes, you get lucky and if there isn't a lot of other work going on at the time, and your script is good, and people believe in you, then it can be surprising who is willing to help! It's very humbling for sure, and something you never forget.

At the lower end, I find there are a lot of people who think they are doing you a favor somehow, which is kind of weird, and there is no sense working with people who aren't going to help you be the best you can be.
 
Exactly. I'm a pro, and I was so impressed by Faith's story that I emailed and offered to help however I could. So far, all she's done is ask a couple of questions, but I have no agenda other than to encourage what looks like an awesome indie film.
 
Yes.

Pros know how to spot another pro when they see one, and amateurs usually don't (can't), so they're frequently suspicious of one's motives.

Small-timers can be equally difficult to deal with. When I was in my early 20s and living in the Cincinnati area, I was looking for a job in a recording studio. The owners I spoke to were all pretty impersonal and *very* discouraging - sort of a "buzz off, kid" attitude. When I moved (back) to NYC, the opposite was the case - all the studio owners I called were friendly and helpful, and even if they weren't hiring they were not at all discouraging. Within a few months I got my first gig and never looked back. That was many, many years ago...

At this point, I still see much the same dynamic - my professional clients are much easier to work with than amateurs. In fairness, this is partly because my studio business is in my home - to an amateur, it might look like I'm one too. The pros can tell right away that I'm a pro too, and actually find the 'home studio environment' refreshing. No suspicion of amateurishness there...

The bottom line is that it's more likely to be difficult working with amateurs than pros - not the other way around.

Except, of course, sometimes : )

And to further counter the implication by the person who raised this issue, professionals in the arts are rarely money-grubbing mercenaries or however you might term them. If they were, unless they were also idiots, they'd have picked a different line of work...
 
Ted Spencer said:
Yes.

Pros know how to spot another pro when they see one, and amateurs usually don't (can't), so they're frequently suspicious of one's motives.

Small-timers can be equally difficult to deal with. When I was in my early 20s and living in the Cincinnati area, I was looking for a job in a recording studio. The owners I spoke to were all pretty impersonal and *very* discouraging - sort of a "buzz off, kid" attitude. When I moved (back) to NYC, the opposite was the case - all the studio owners I called were friendly and helpful, and even if they weren't hiring they were not at all discouraging. Within a few months I got my first gig and never looked back. That was many, many years ago...

At this point, I still see much the same dynamic - my professional clients are much easier to work with than amateurs. In fairness, this is partly because my studio business is in my home - to an amateur, it might look like I'm one too. The pros can tell right away that I'm a pro too, and actually find the 'home studio environment' refreshing. No suspicion of amateurishness there...

The bottom line is that it's more likely to be difficult working with amateurs than pros - not the other way around.

Except, of course, sometimes : )

And to further counter the implication by the person who raised this issue, professionals in the arts are rarely money-grubbing mercenaries or however you might term them. If they were, unless they were also idiots, they'd have picked a different line of work...
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, in smaller markets, there isn't as much business to go around. Compounded by the facts that many in those markets mistakenly think treating people like dirt is how they do it in NYC or Hollywood, or because there isn't much business they can get away with it. (something all to common in all types of buseness in smaller markets).
 
Well to add my 2 cents to the mix, the biggest Pro I have on board right now is by far Patrick and he doesn't want anything at all, except than help me get this done right :). With a super long Imdb page and clients that include all the big studios and big names in Hollywood, you 're right to say it is "humbling" for me.

On another note some of the small time 'pros' have already been trying to take advantage of me, those are the people who are not at the top, like Patrick is, but rather towards the bottom and struggling to climb up.

Fortunately I wasn't born yesterday. One of the advantages of having a few wrinkles on your face ;).

I must also confess that the people on this forum have been AWESOME to me. Luis, Robert, Tony, Duke, and Pieroh and Perrone, David, barry, Stephen, and my god FRANK !!! Frank has been absolutely AMAZING, beyond description. Such kindness to help me, I will never forget it. there are many more, but above names came to my mind fastest :).

So yes there might be some people who are jaleous and wish you to fail etc, but there are also the people who have passion for the art of storytelling through features and they want to see it happen and will help to make it happen. Just for the LOVE.

Oh yeah. :love4:
 
Deuceofspades said:
ENGLISH: "Hey Jonnhy!"

was also "Hey Johnny" in several other languages :P. I was really enjoying reading the Italian version of the film, especially when it came to the "Shut up you dumb Wop!" sections LOL. Good thing my Italian contacts have a good sense of humor!! They called Fresno "Spagetti eater" in Italian

Who are you calling a wop, ass hole?

A chi hai detto mangiaspaghetti, pezzo di merda?
Click to expand...

I would translate wop as "mafioso" rather than spaghetti eater ..... and following precisely the time of your verb, it would be "A chi stai dicendo mafioso, pezzo di merda?"

My 2 cents
 
CiPO said:
I would translate wop as "mafioso" rather than spaghetti eater ..... and following precisely the time of your verb, it would be "A chi stai dicendo mafioso, pezzo di merda?"

My 2 cents
Click to expand...

Oh I see, you want the mafia to put a contract on my head eh? LOL HA!

No, I definitely would not do that it would not at all work in the context.


Below Toni Crosciato, aka "FRESNO" does not take it likely when he is called a "dumb wop" (I don't blame him!)


F886ADB8AA.jpg
 
As far as I've always known it (and I've been around for quite a long time!), "wop" is an ethnic slur for "Italian", plain and simple, with no mob-related associations. The latter might be something more like "guido" (which of course is also an actual name). For some reason, "guinea" (at least in certain isolated areas I know of) is also slang for "Italian", although not necessarily a slur. Some italians I know refer to themselves self-deprecatingly in that way. But they would never self-describe as "wop". And I'm guessing that they wouldn't appreciate it if *I* referred to them as "guineas".

I should add that I never use racial, ethnic or cultural slurs to describe anyone of any sort. Just so you know...
 
Ted Spencer said:
As far as I've always known it (and I've been around for quite a long time!), "wop" is an ethnic slur for "Italian", plain and simple, with no mob-related associations.
Click to expand...

I found out that "wop" originates from the Italian pesants arriving Ellis Island WithOut Papers...

@ CiPO: I used Finnish word "makaroni" which means "macaroni" (in case you didn't guess) :huh:
 
It's official 100% of the sound files have been exported successfully and the entire film is now in the possession of the studio. Including all the foleys.

I now turn around and tackle scoring. My first day at getting that started was very frustrating. I am finding that you need to go to college for 10 years just to figure out how to use East West samples. No phone support, not even for money, was to be found :angry:... 210 pages of dual manuals later I still have not been told how to hook up my keyboard to the PC and how to connect East West to Cubase.

A little "Quick set up" manual sure would have been nice... Was there supposed to be one in the box or in the pdf manuals somehow?

And to quote my character in my film: "I don't have time for this shi*!"

:Drogar-Mark-04(DBG) If anyone knows how to do above can you PLEASE HELP ME???

I have 10 days to finish my scoring and really can't afford to waste 9 of them trying to figure out how to get the first sound out of this system.

email me at deuceofspadesmv@aol.com
 
Deuceofspades said:
210 pages of dual manuals later I still have not been told how to hook up my keyboard to the PC and how to connect East West to Cubase.[/COLOR][/EMAIL]
Click to expand...

Many if not most manuals for higher end software like this assume you already know the basics. Some of the better ones do include full setup info though. Sorry this one has left you high and dry, but I'm pretty sure you'll get some help here. I'd be more than happy to do so myself, but I'm 100% Mac with my audio/music stuff (which I do for a living), so I'm afraid I'd be of littler help with your PC setup.

If you don't get quick solutions here, you might try posting on the "music computers" forum at gearslutz.com. It's a good resource if you haven't already visited there. Quite a bit rowdier than the comparatively civil group here, but worthwhile nonetheless.

I assume you have an audio and/or midi interface for your rig? The basic instructions for setting up that would be normally included, and may well provide you with the answers you're looking for. Sorry I can't offer you much more than that.

Best of luck with the music!
 
On second thought, let me take a crack at a few of the basics:

-You need a midi interface to connect your midi keyboard to your PC unless said keyboard has integral USB midi connectivity, which is a fairly recent thing.

-Sample libraries like East/West get installed in your computer per the instructions that I'm sure *were* included with it, so start by doing that (you probably already have).

-Samples, aka "virtual instruments" are accessed inside of apps like Cubase by first creating a new Instrument track from the track menu (or however/wherever Cubase puts it). That track's input needs to be set to a midi channel or name corresponding to your keyboard and interface, and its output needs to be routed to your audio interface's outputs for monitoring. You may also be able to monitor directly through your PC's sound card.

-After doing this correctly, you simply enter record on the Instrument track, play on the midi keyboard, and your performance is captured. You may also want to use a click track/metronome, which is part of Cubase's basic feature set. See its manual. After recording, play from the top and voila...there she'll be. You can edit the notes in Cubase using various means of display such as notation, grid, event list etc. Check Cubase's manual for this. Then rinse and repeat for additional parts...

-I usually use a separate midi track to record into, routing it in turn to the instrument track, but it can be done either way. I find that a separate track makes editing easier.

-You will have a limited amount of ability to run multiple instances of virtual instruments based on your computer's processor and hard drive specs (using an external drive for this is highly recommended), so you will want to "print" or record the parts into audio files as you go along. To do that just add an audio track, route the instrument track to it, and record on the audio track while playing the instrument one.

Hope this helps!
 
Last edited:
Ok let me tell you what I have set-up:

PC with Cubase (2 year old version - works fine)

Loaded up all the sample, got lock key, got it activated and now able to open East West.

have MACKI 16 channel mixing board I go into to record.
Output of that goes to MOTU 2408 Output of that goes to PC Motu card.
Recording into analog tracks of Cubase (never used midi with my PC studio)

A long long time ago, before man walked upright ;), I did everythign in midi. In those days PC based recording studios did not exit (yet) and I used a sequencer and a 16 track tape recorded LOL. (I told you man didn't walk uprigth yet :beer:)
I bought an Ensoniq SQ80, which to this day works like a charm and has midi capabilities.

We fastforward a few milleneums.

I then got set up on the computer with Cubase, but now no longer used keyboards at all in my music and went for a 100% real deal sound, using only REAL insutruments. Everything was recorded live onto 'analog' tracks of cubase. (not sure you'd call them analog , but I mean not midi tracks).

NOW TODAY:

To do scoring, since I ain't got an orchestra up my sleeve, I have to go back to midi. At least to some extent. I'll need midi to access the sample with Ensonic. OK. But I am leaning towards using the Ensoniq to access the East West samples and playing them like you would a piano and record them directly into Cubase onto regular tracks (as opposed to using Cubase's midi tracks) . Thereby playing with a live feel and avoiding the "lag" that I saw is quite predominant when using midi with some of those rich samples. I don't want to wait for 7 minutes between the moment my hand presses the keyboard key, and the moment I hear the sound.

Above means less flexibility to edit later :( but because I am short on time and editing midi might take a bit of time to figure out, this might be the best way to go - for now. I was told i could record a midi track at the same time I record my live track so I can have that data available later if need be.


So now I bought a midi cable with USB to connect Ensonic SQ80 (the faithful, resilient dynosaure) to the PC (have not done that yet but will today). I also have Proteus that still hold some real cool sounds and I used it very efficiently in my DOS existing soundtrack.

My studio is connected and works, but I have no clue on how to get Ensonic to play East West samples so I can then record orchestral sounds into Cubase.

Now that I have narrowed it down quite a bit, if you can walk me click by click on how to route samples (through cubase) to Ensonic keyboard, I would be ready to kick ass, pronto.

And I will be kicking ass, musically, once I'll get going. :D

I'm also gonna head out to Guitar Center, which is 3 blocks away from my work (THANK GOD) and pick their brains there until there is nothing left to pick hehehehehehe...

thank you thank you!
 
Last edited:
I took a quick look at the SQ80's specs and I'm 99.9% certain that it's going to be impossible to use the East/West samples in it. Modern virtual instrument libraries use vastly larger amounts of sample memory than something like the 1989 vintage SQ80 has. Like Gigabytes versus Megabytes (1,000x) difference. The only way to play the great modern sample libraries is on a relatively fast, modern computer.

It looks like you will need to add a midi interface. A USB cable will not work with the Ensoniq. A MOTU Fast Lane (about $75) should do the trick if you want to go bare-bones. A multi-port interface like all the other MOTU midi ones will allow you to run more than the two midi devices the Fast Lane will, and will set you back a few hundred bucks. To reiterate: you must have a midi interface of some kind to use the Ensoniq.

The playback delay (aka "latency") you describe is solvable with a fast enough computer, ample memory and small disk buffer settings (see east/west and/or Cubase manual for details). Even my old Mac G5 (dual 2.7 GHz) is plenty fast enough to play a virtual instruments in (effectively) real time in Pro Tools, as is my dual 2.5 GHz MacBook Pro.

If you can find a Guitar Center salesman with some more advanced knowledge (you may have to tactfully ask for one, since many GC employees are basically unskilled), they may be able to give you some good suggestions.
 
Ted Spencer said:
I took a quick look at the SQ80's specs and I'm 99.9% certain that it's going to be impossible to use the East/West samples in it. Modern virtual instrument libraries use vastly larger amounts of sample memory than something like the 1989 vintage SQ80 has. Like Gigabytes versus Megabytes (1,000x) difference. The only way to play the great modern sample libraries is on a relatively fast, modern computer.

It looks like you will need to add a midi interface. A USB cable will not work with the Ensoniq. A MOTU Fast Lane (about $75) should do the trick if you want to go bare-bones. A multi-port interface like all the other MOTU midi ones will allow you to run more than the two midi devices the Fast Lane will, and will set you back a few hundred bucks. To reiterate: you must have a midi interface of some kind to use the Ensoniq.

The playback delay (aka "latency") you describe is solvable with a fast enough computer, ample memory and small disk buffer settings (see east/west and/or Cubase manual for details). Even my old Mac G5 (dual 2.7 GHz) is plenty fast enough to play a virtual instruments in (effectively) real time in Pro Tools, as is my dual 2.5 GHz MacBook Pro.

If you can find a Guitar Center salesman with some more advanced knowledge (you may have to tactfully ask for one, since many GC employees are basically unskilled), they may be able to give you some good suggestions.
Click to expand...

OK no worries. The expert at Guitar Center is helping me. Ensonic is just used as a keyboard controller, and it works fine, it is the PC that fires up the East West libraries. problem was... My Cubase version was too "old" (2 years old) and does not support EW more advanced engine. So now i am heading back otu to Guitar Center to cough up (yet) MORE dough. It figures.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top