FS7: Decision Time! FS5 to FS7?

mapkos13 said:
... is it better than 7 with the raw output capability to the Odyssey?
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My understanding is that the RAW implementation on the FS7 is less than ideal. So if your question is whether the FS5 with RAW is better than the FS7 with RAW, again, my understanding is that it is. I have no idea why this would be, but the people I've talked to who've shot RAW with the FS7 say that this is indeed the case.

But at the end of the day, YOU need to be happy with whatever camera you choose. If the FS7 ticks your boxes, then by all means go for it.
 
Stephen Mick said:
But if we're talking about which camera system delivers the better image, I'd say the FS5 RAW beats the stock FS7 any day of the week. .
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That's strange. In my own head-to-head testing, RAW from my FS5 can't even beat XAVC-L recorded internally on SD cards in the FS5, let alone beat XAVC-I from my FS7. I'd love to see your side by side examples that show how the FS5 RAW beats the FS7 any day of the week. if that is truly the case, I'd love to see some evidence of it.

 
Doug Jensen said:
That's strange. In my own head-to-head testing, RAW from my FS5 can't even beat XAVC-L recorded internally on SD cards in the FS5, let alone beat XAVC-I from my FS7. I'd love to see your side by side examples that show how the FS5 RAW beats the FS7 any day of the week. if that is truly the case, I'd love to see some evidence of it.

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Sorry, Doug, but my experiences clearly do not align with yours. Based on my shooting, RAW from the FS5 clearly has more color depth, more latitude, and allows more creative "possibilities" than anything I've shot with a stock FS5 or FS7. Two different editors and colorists I work with have shared just how "good" they think the FS5 RAW footage is, and what it allows them to do.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
Unless someone has done side-by-side testing on the exact same shots, I question the validity of their impressions one way or the other. A vs. B testing is all that matters. If you haven't given them that raw material, then I don't know what they are basing their judgement on. I have put in the time and effort to do the shooting and grading and I don't see the benefit. In fact, if anything, the RAW footage recorded on the 7Q+ is noticeably noiser than the internal recordings when I view the original footage on broadcast monitors in my edit bay -- not Vimeo where much of the differences become neutralized. I invite anyone to SHOW me this great difference that you speak of, and then I will reconsider my opinion. Until then, I fail to see any significant benefit to RAW on the FS5. It is certainly nothing at all like RAW on my F55.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
Unless someone has done side-by-side testing on the exact same shots, I question the validity of their impressions one way or the other. A vs. B testing is all that matters. If you haven't given them that raw material, then I don't know what they are basing their judgement on. I have put in the time and effort to do the shooting and grading and I don't see the benefit. In fact, if anything, the RAW footage recorded on the 7Q+ is noticeably noiser than the internal recordings when I view the original footage on broadcast monitors -- not Vimeo where much of th differences become neutralized. I invite anyone to SHOW me this great difference that speak of.
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My opinions (and that's all they are) are based on shooting with both cameras, viewing and grading the footage in high-end color suites, and general conversations with the editors and colorists. Their subjective opinions are worth more to me than anything else. I stopped shooting camera tests a long time ago.

As for noise, I have no doubt the RAW footage would have more noise. As I understand it, there IS in-camera noise reduction going on with the internal SD-card footage, but NOT with the RAW output. Having worked extensively with RED RAW and CinemaDNG from the Blackmagic Cameras, I'm used to doing noise reduction in post.

And I'm not even saying that there's any noticeable increase in resolution from RAW to internal. I would doubt there is, and even if there were, it's not why I would shoot RAW. I shoot RAW to have 12-bit CinemaDNG files recorded from the RAW output. In my experience, this allows more creative options in post than internal 10-bit footage can. That's what I want from RAW, and that's why, for me, the RAW-enabled FS5 is the right camera.
 
Thank you for the further explanation. I think it paints a more accurate picture of your opinion of FS5 RAW than your earlier statements did, which didn't address any of the shortcomings or lack of actual testing that have come out now in this last post. In my opinion, the difference between RAW and Internal is not anywhere near as great as someone reading earlier posts might have been led to believe. And in my expereince, the FS5 does not beat the FS7 any day of the week. My motive in posting is not to try to get you to change your mind because I know it is already made up, but I just felt an obligation to offer a counterpoint when I see something being said that I completely disagree with after doing some comtrolled tests.
 
Thanks Doug and Stephen for the discussion.

Doug, I'll be renting your FS-7 Vimeo this week to gain another level of understanding of the camera's features and your findings.
 
mapkos13 said:
Thanks Doug and Stephen for the discussion.

Doug, I'll be renting your FS-7 Vimeo this week to gain another level of understanding of the camera's features and your findings.
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That's a great place to start. I rented Doug's FS5 course on Vimeo and it was well worth it.
 
Raw video can be a revelation like what came out of the 5DmkIII compared to the internal H264 but to me what is recorded internally from the FS7 is so close to raw video that I would never bother to go external.
 
I had the FS700 with the 7Q. Since Convergent managed after over one year in mid 2015 to release a firmware with a good color rendering to ProRes I was very pleased with the result. But the chunk of camera, recorder, batteries etc. was a pita. I am more than happy with the FS7 and CineEI. It runs a whole day with 3 batteries. It's flexible and it works stripped down with a small footprint but also with a lot of accessories at a fantastic image quality. Personally I don't have the need of RAW.

For me the FS5 is a different camera and if you need a better quality than the internal recording I would switch to the FS7. I would not consider adding the 7Q on a regular basis. This carries the concept of the FS5 as a small, light weight, easy to travel with ad absurdum.
 
Well done on listening to everyone's advice on here and then doing the complete opposite! :)


That said, I've yet to see any best of class FS5 image, raw or otherwise, that is vaguely in the same ballpark as a 'best practices' well shot FS7 one let alone better.

If anyone can show me such a thing I'll buy one.
 
I'll wait for the final verdict. Who owns 2 tripods, a FS5, a FS7 two identical lenses and an Odysee and some spare time? (or leave it to the same German magazine...)
 
On a serious note since I have a good group here. Any shoulder rig setup you like for this baby?

Zacuto, Shape, or the like?
 
Ben Scott said:
Well done on listening to everyone's advice on here and then doing the complete opposite! :)
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Yes! That's great but in fairness the advice was a bit for both. I guess my wife is right though when she says "don't ask me what to do if you're just going to do what you want to anyway!
 
mapkos13 said:
On a serious note since I have a good group here. Any shoulder rig setup you like for this baby?

Zacuto, Shape, or the like?
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I have decided for Zacuto for my FS7, it is a little bit heavy but I like the quality of the Zacuto and the stability you end up if you run it on your shoulder. Especially with the XDCA and the v-mount batteries.

For the generel decision I think it is a good result to go for a FS7 - it IS the better camera at the end of the day for sure. I like the EI mode and the capability to record internal 10bit 422 XAVC I is great. The XDCA with v-mount batteries has also the advantage that it re-balance the FS7 in a really great way what is important especially for a shoulder rig - and I would not underestimate this point.

I have found the comments about raw from the FS7 interesting too, since that was also a question that I had when I decided for the FS7 but not for the FS5. In the meantime I have also invested in the XAVC and have started to record also raw from the FS7 with the Shogun, but I have not done a comparision like Dough has mentioned, and beside the fact that I see opinions as a great ressource I would not be happy with opinions alone.

But for the raw comparision I have still not come to a final conclusion yet. Given the long discussions that we had about the 12bit linear raw and the danger that banding may occure in the lowlight parts there is a clear limitation in this Sony raw and what is delivered by both the FS5 and the FS7. There will be always some noise in both x-log but also raw I think. But beside the fact that people like Mitch mentioned a little bit that the XDCA is not so ideal for raw, I do still not understand why the limitations between FS5 and FS7 raw in terms of 12bit linear raw should be so different really. But maybe the internal 10bit recording of the FS7 and the FS7 raw must be tested really with a side-by-side approach of both footages.
 
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