Dealing with actors

F

Foster Kane

Well-known member
I am putting together a short with some actors and I wanted to run by somethings with all of you

1. I plan on copyrighting my screenplay and taking other measures to protect my property. Not that I have the greatest idea in the world, but I am concerned about my work being stolen. Should I have my actors sign a form saying that they will return the screenplay and not use it to make their own films? O r should I just trust everyone? I as bringing it up because one of the actors I have approached is actually a filmmaker themselves.

2. Is it required that actors needs to see the script first before committing to a production? I know that it sounds weird, but I do not want them to see the script till shoot day. I am going for a very raw and unpolished technique.

3. I am also getting a bossy vibe from one of the actors. They have asked to see a script which is normal but at one point I wanted to call them and clear something up, but their response was do not bother calling until we see a script. Now, I understand this actor does not want to waste their time but I was a little taken a back with their attitude. I am under the impression that they might try to influence my production.
 
Last edited:
If you have copyrighted your work, then I think you should be covered. I was an actor/filmmaker for several years, and that would have seemed a bit strange and unnecessary to me if someone asked me to sign such a form. As for allowing the actors see the script before production, it just depends on the actors and how receptive they are to such a process. Many actors would hate the idea of not being able to see a script weeks before shooting in that a script is often the most vital tool for an actor in terms of establishing their characters' backstories, objectives (motivations to be cliche), etc. If you choose not to let the actors see the script before the first day of shooting, I would suggest that you have multiple, extensive, one on one conversations with them weeks before shooting and explain your reasoning/goals/vision for the project and why you feel such an atypical shooting process could benefit both the project itself and their performances. I would also recommend that you use this time to provide them with a detailed description of their characters and, in turn, allow them to give you their input/insight based on what you've told them. This process will likely mold/revamp the ideas you already have for the characters (for the better), and you will have utilized your actors as just that-actors, rather than talking headshots regurgitating dialogue that they don't fully understand. Of course, all of that is purely the (wordy) opinion of one guy. But, I was an actor for quite a few years, so I hope it helped. As for that actor, fire them- an attitude like that can be cancerous in a production.
 
Last edited:
Agreed on the bad actor... theres so many people who would love to be in a film. Get rid of the rotten apples. They can sink the ship FAST.
 
1) definitely copywrite your screenplay regardless of dealing with actors.

2) If you are going for a raw and unpolished technique, explain to each of them either separately or in a group what you expect from each of them. I'm not sure exactly how much you want to keep from them, but at the very least let all of them know what you are trying to achieve by witholding the script from them.

3) actors will and do influence a production, sometimes its a collaborative effort, which is why you choose them in the first place. I'm not surprised an actor said that to you...just let him know your intentions for witholding the script and give him some info about the character or your style to work with.
 
Thank you all for your responses. I have made the decision to 86 that particular actor because I am just not in the mood to deal with that type of crap. I experienced that once with an actor who nearly destroyed my last production.

I am aware that film making is a collaboration and I do welcome it from my actors. But I am have no desire to get into a stand off with anyone.

From what I can gather from the responses from this thread, I need to have very clear lines of communication with my actors and make sure they understand what they are up for and explain why I am doing certain things.


This is going to be an unpaid film. I plan on feeding the cast but do I have to cover their transportation costs? Is that part of the protocol?
 
Last edited:
Well done on sticking to your guns about 86'ing the actor. Ultimately this is up to you...this is your film!

Cover their transportation costs if they aren't too extravagant. It would to keep them coming to set every day.

You are correct about keeping open lines of communication with the actors, this is key for a director. I would recommend reading "changing direction" by lenore dekoven. You will find some valuable information for directing actors.
 
As an actor, I wouldn't take an unscripted role unless it was *really clear* to me what exactly was going to happen/expected of me on the set. The reason being that the vast majority of people who attempt this sort of thing are in fact inexperienced/bordering on clueless about filmmaking. There are exceptions of course, and that is what I would seek to discover with some pointed questions to the filmmaker.

IMHO, there's an unfortunately very common gross misconception about the viability of unscripted/unrehearsed/improvised/'real person/non actor' shooting plans. The idea is that it will provide a sense of visceral realism and immediacy to the result. The effect however, about 99% of the time, is that it provides a sense of amateurishness, stiffness and aimless boredom to the result.

As to the actor who "refused to talk to you without a script", taken at face value, it sounds unreasonable. However, we're hearing it only from your side, not his.

How much expertise do you have as a filmmaker? I ask because your original post contains a number of 'red flags' commonly associated with very inexperienced amateur filmmakers, such as:

-Excess concern about your short film idea being stolen:

Accomplished screenwriters offer their (copyrighted) scripts up in competitions by the truckloads every year, to be read by hundreds of people who could 'steal' their work. Numerous websites exist for the sole purpose of getting feedback from other writers on their scripts, and are highly recommended. Most books on screenwriting cite excess concern about ownership/theft as a classic hallmark of a newbie/amateur. This has been borne out in my own experience as an actor and screenwriter almost without exception: amateurs are very frequently concerned about it; pros almost never are.

-Concern about the actor wanting to 'influence' your production:

Skilled filmmakers will welcome input from everyone involved. What of that is used is up to the director, but concern about it in advance, is another amateur red flag. Your actors, crew and collaborators might well provide you with brilliant ideas you never would have thought of. Be open to them. Always. At the very least, out of professional courtesy, which is not to say it should ever be as a 'token' response.

-The aforementioned 'raw and unpolished' (your words) approach:

As I said earlier, it's a very common mistake made by the inexperienced. IMHO, most often it's really just a dodge for inadequate preparation, which is why it fails to produce good films at an astonishingly high rate (astonishing to some that is, but not to me, and perhaps not to your since-fired actor). Do you have the knowledge and experience to pull this approach off well, or (please excuse the bluntness) are you just copping out because the actual planning, scripting, preparation, and yes *skill* at doing it well are beyond your grasp? It's a serious question, not an insult...

I could go on, but I gotta run, so for now it's just...

My $.02
 
Last edited:
At the end of the day, it is your film and your process will work best for you. The actors and crew just have to be on board, and it is your job to get them there. If you know in your heart that shooting this project unscripted is the best way to achieve a certain effect, then don't let some stranger on a forum make you second guess yourself. Articulate your plan and passion to the actors and crew; make them believe in both you, your ability, and the project itself; and allow them to feel as if it's also somewhat THEIR project as well by being receptive to their ideas (even if 99% of them are terrible, that 1% could drastically alter your film for the better). Once you do all of that, they will follow you through hell, because you will have made them both passionate about the project and confident in your ability. Ted does make a great point about the raw, unpolished look. This is very achievable even in a very scripted, preproduction heavy film. If nothing else, you could write a solid script, make a shot list, shoot it as planned and scripted, and then allow for improvisational takes for both the actors and the DP after sufficient coverage has been captured for the scripted shots. That's just an idea. Again, this is your film, and there is no one right way to do it. If your gut tells you that the unscripted approach is the best way, then go for it, but be confident, have or gain the knowledge to back up that confidence, and, perhaps most importantly, instill confidence in your crew and actors.
 
Carrcs, you pretty much summed up what I am about to say. But I am going to say it anyway.


I have learned that when it comes to film it really comes down to the final product. How you get to that point really doesn't matter. You can do everything right and by the book and it could be a complete mess. I have my way of doing things and so far they work for me.


The issues I have raised are things that do not come from my imagination, I have experienced or heard about. They are definitely legitimate concerns. It is an established practice in the film industry to have every one sign confidentiality agreements and print their scripts on special paper that can't be photocopied.

Professional screenwriters don't have to worry about these issues because they are already compensated for their work or they have iron clad contracts to protect them from being screwed over. And even that is not enough. Dispute over writing credits are a common occurrence in Hollywood.

Part of film production is putting out fires. However, I am just trying to deal with as many as these fires before shoot day.

I have rejected actors for projects and actors have rejected my projects. Is it personal? Hell no. For whatever reason, it does not work out. In this particular instance with this actor I felt that there was going to be unneeded tension between us. It was best for both of us to part ways before it turned into something nasty. As person, I think very highly of this actor. It is just that in this particular situation, I do not think we could work together.

Btw, you first have to hire someone before you can fire them. I never hired this person. What ended the conversation was they were unwilling to speak to me personally until they saw a script which is their prerogative. But I never exp

As for the " gross misconception about the viability of unscripted/unrehearsed/improvised/'real person/non actor' shooting plan" Your words, not mine. I can say the same thing about shoots that do everything by the book.

There are copious amounts of movies that follow standard operational procedure of pre-production and they still suck.

If this approach fails, then I will know better. But I do not know if I haven't

As for the knowledge and experience, if I had those in the bag, I would not be here.
 
As an actor myself, Ted really put things into words well.

He is giving you some very useful information, but it seems you are taking offense at it. Look past whatever it was that got you fired up, and look at the meaning of what he is saying.

I too, would be highly dubious of a project that refused their actors an opportunity to learn their character. And that usually entails receiving a script as soon as they are asked to be that character.

Rawness is good, but not being prepared is another. Maybe there are actors out there that love this type of thing, I for one, am not. And I do not know many other actors that like it either. Even skits done live (SNL, etc) have a script the actors get. But this "raw, unpolished" look? No, I would want to know everything possible about the production, including the script. Especially in the light of the method you are attempting.

It comes down to trust. As an actor, I have to trust that you are going to do the best job directing, as you have to trust I am going to do the best job acting. Not being open with people shows lack of trust right off the bat. If you had done this to me, I would have politely told you "Why don't you call me in a few years, when you are serious about film-making." And then leave. Inwardly, knowing I just had my time wasted.

Foster, it's been done many, many times over, and I have yet to see one do anything. So, as for not "going by the book",:D , you ARE going by the book, just a different, yet well-read book every new film-makers reads when they try to re-invent the wheel.

The issues I have raised are things that do not come from my imagination, I have experienced or heard about. They are definitely legitimate concerns. It is an established practice in the film industry to have every one sign confidentiality agreements and print their scripts on special paper that can't be photocopied.
Click to expand...
Must be different where you are. On every TV show I have worked on, I never saw this special paper you mention. My scripts were regular copy paper, sometimes just a color to indicate what revision it was. NDA, yes. Super secret paper? No. I expect to see an NDA when I am attached to a project, that's a given. Heck, I provide them to production companies when I bid a script for Indie-Arms, just to protect them if they forget to send me one. It protects me and it protects them. But, hey, where you are they might just use this secret copy-proof paper. In Hollywood, nah. People there aren't so paranoid.

As for the knowledge and experience, if I had those in the bag, I would not be here.
Click to expand...
But being here, will you listen when really good advice is being given to you freely?
 
Last edited:
Doc Bernard said:
As an actor myself, Ted really put things into words well.

He is giving you some very useful information, but it seems you are taking offense at it. Look past whatever it was that got you fired up, and look at the meaning of what he is saying.

I too, would be highly dubious of a project that refused their actors an opportunity to learn their character. And that usually entails receiving a script as soon as they are asked to be that character.

Rawness is good, but not being prepared is another. Maybe there are actors out there that love this type of thing, I for one, am not. Even skits done live (SNL, etc) have a script the actors get.

But being here, will you listen when really good advice is being given to you freely?
Click to expand...

I have to agree with both of these, its important for things to be *REALLY CLEAR for the actor.

Its a craft and art for them too, you won't get far with actors if you don't or can't understand that.

but if you really feel an actor will sabotage the shoot...don't hire them of course
 
Personally, I don't think I'd ever shoot a serious project without letting an actor see the script first. Currently I'm training an actress to fight and running her through the first scene we're going to shoot already. (Luckily for me my apartment is where the first scene takes place). On "Wages" I watched two actresses (CiCi Foster and Felicia Danisor) run lines and literally watched them change from actor to character the more they read. When we shot the scene it was quick, took about three hours max, including set up and we were out. That's what I like.

I'm not saying not to shoot the film you're way, maybe you'll learn that it doesn't work (or maybe you'll find that somehow it works for you), but actors don't like not having a script and on the acting side if someone said I couldn't read the script until the shoot I would think something was fishy. In fact unlike a some actors I would prefer to read the whole thing, not just my parts. Heck, I've posted parts of scripts up here before.

I do NDAs too for specific purposes, but a lot of what I do isn't 100% original. I mean hell, there's another filmmaker here on DVXU who let me read their script and the script is about much of the same thing mine is. It's very different and takes a different angle. The second film in his series is much closer to the ideas I have for third in mine but many of the ideas and general approach are almost identical. I even threw some of my ideas at him. There's not much new under the sun. The only time I freak is when someone does something so close to what I'm doing it's almost impossible, then again when that happens, it's usually someone who doesn't know me, nor know of my idea.

Now I'll say this, if you feel an actor is going to try to control the shoot, you're right for nipping it in the bud. I've had actors try to take control of a shoot and it's not fun. But many actors won't take you seriously if you don't show a script. Even C - list actors all the way down to basic theater students ask for a script. Even if you mod the script doing production, the framework is there.

-Nate
 
Last edited:
Just want to clarify a couple of things.

I am not offended by anything that has been said. It seems that the actors here have taken offense because I ended a relationship with an actor. I am surprised by the reaction of the actors in the group because rejection is part of the business. This decision to end it with this actor was based on how they were interacting with me. I presented the same terms to another actor and they also asked to see a script but when I said I wanted to talk to them first in person, they were more than happy to oblige.

Am I perfect? Hells no. I have done more than my fair share of screw ups and I own up to them. I am sure that a lot of you have been burned by projects that were nothing but hot air. You are all angry and bitter about it. which is obvious by the words that are being said. I truly hope that you all feel better after venting.
 
Foster Kane said:
Am I perfect? Hells no. I have done more than my fair share of screw ups and I own up to them. I am sure that a lot of you have been burned by projects that were nothing but hot air. You are all angry and bitter about it. which is obvious by the words that are being said. I truly hope that you all feel better after venting.
Click to expand...

What is it about these people? You ask for advice, and when given it you give the response above.

Did you expect to talk to a bunch of actors and we would say "Oh yeah, you as a director, are totally right"? Especially in the light of what has been said from very experienced actors? We are not upset that you ended a relationship with an actor. If he was "toxic", then sure, sever the relationship. But your definition of "toxic" is at odds here. He wanted a script? That made him "toxic"? Then you live in a world of delusion all your own, one where you know everything about film-making and are the greatest director the world has ever seen. Enjoy the delusion, friend, because you are in it alone.

Please explain exactly what you wanted to gain from this? Surely not an ego stroke, because we are not going to give you one. Because many experienced actors have told you what you tried and are attempting is not a good way to develop a trusting relationship with an actor. Or maybe it was a cry for attention as your own actors have walked out on you. Look how you responded to actors not attached to your project. Uhh, no wonder why he didn't trust you. I sure wouldn't just based on the way you have held yourself here with strangers.

But now you are insulting everyone trying to be nice to you and gently saying, "Dude, not a good way to go." We are not "venting". we are giving you the results of our experiences. But it seems you spell Director with a K, as in "Herr Direktor". Not willing to listen, as your way is the only way. Fine, go do it, let us know how it turns out. I highly doubt anyone will be surprised here at your "results". And keep in mind, the next time you ask for advice, I for one, will remember what you said here. And how you responded to people taking the time out of their schedule to give you their valuable and qualified opinions.

You went into "defensive" mode right after people started sharing their experiences, which raises red flags for me. You probably haven't given us the whole story, just your "take" which you thought put you in a favorable light. And you found out otherwise.

Sad. You have insulted pro's that could have really assisted you in the future. But, I guess that is the curse of the young and/or immature.

Grow up.
 
Last edited:
Nathyn said:
unlike a some actors I would prefer to read the whole thing, not just my parts.

-Nate
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned this is essential. How some actors think they can coherently play a role in a story they've only read their parts of is beyond me.

I've seen some ludicrously off the mark performances as a result of this. Like a scene from a feature I wrote where the girl is quite emphatically and dispassionately dumping her loser boyfriend, but the actress played it all tearfully - like Prince Charming had just let her down. Apparently she had read only this scene, seemingly focusing almost entirely on her own lines, and thus had no idea that said Prince was a total a-hole, even as indicated within the scene itself. And believe it or not, this actress is actually quite talented. If the scene had been written as she played it, her performance would have been great. But it wasn't. Nowhere near...

While I'm ranting, directors who think they can make coherent movies by spoon-feeding scenes to the cast bit by bit also have a special place in my own personal "hell of fame". Have they never heard of character arc? Story arc? A film I made this way as an actor didn't provide me with key details about the character and plot until huge chunks of it had been shot. Oops... How do I connect the guy I (thought) I was with the guy they turned me into? Sorry folks, it ain't gonna make sense because the writers set me (and you unfortunate viewers) up for a fall...

Rant mode off...
 
Last edited:
Andrea Arnold is using this technique of giving actors their next scene a few days or a day ahead of shooting and not allowing them to see the rest of the script. She won an academy award for her short film Wasp and employed this method for Fish Tank. So while not a technique I would encourage for anyone starting out or really for seasoned veterans it can work. I was having this discussion with a working actor last week and he has been very interested in attempting something like this with the caveat it is a director/writer that he really trusted.
 
Rules are made to be broken, right? And if the director knows the character and story arcs intimately, and can coherently convey them bit by bit to the actors, *and get great results*, then cool. That's not the case about 99% of the time though, and a solid grasp of the characters and story from knowledge of the script is almost always the actor's solution.
 
; )

; )

180px-Obey_techno_viking.jpg
 
Look, maybe my last post was a bit harsh. But I was pissed off at what you said to members here trying to help you.

Tom, US, Ted, etc, I look up to these people, as they have shown what they have done and have shared in their mistakes to help others. You, I felt was trying to use that knowledge without any benefit to the membership. Kind of a "thank you and now I am gone" kind of deal.

Show me you are not just a user and abuser.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top