1DC: Dead Pixels, random errors, terrible support... anyone else?

[AndreeOnline]

The manual warns against prolonged LV usage. With LV always on the sensor never rests.



Use it when shooting and composing the shot, but shut it off in between takes. I think the small pauses for the sensor can amount to much in the end.

 

[Geko]

The manual warns against prolonged LV usage. With LV always on the sensor never rests.

View attachment 101091

Use it when shooting and composing the shot, but shut it off in between takes. I think the small pauses for the sensor can amount to much in the end.

By all means do that to save your unit. It is really not feasible in normal production environment, however, in my opinion - I have never seen this done in cinema production with cinema cameras. Maybe somewhere someone is babying his camera, but it is certainly not the norm on set with these kind of units. Usually there is no 'free' time on set. You are either composing a shot or you are shooting it. At least that's how I work and that's how virtually all of my colleagues work.

BTW, I am confident that the camera can be left with LV 'on' and can shoot in S35 or any of the other HD modes all day without a hot pixel problem. It is only the 4K shooting which really causes it. And, of course, hot pixels on the sensor are not something which should be tolerated regardless of the manner of use... I hope we are on the same page regarding this

 

[cookinghusband]

My camera has produced at least 12 dead pixels in it. They show up tremendously bad at HD, and pretty bad at 4K. Noticable only after about 800ISO. I purchased it last February, and it is presently getting a new sensor replacement. The card buffer issue, I've had happen once. my 256GB Sandisk extreme 160 kept stopping. It was very cold at the time, dunno if that had anything to do with it, but it hasn't happened since last march.

I guess is the problem with the 256gb sandisk, it never happen to any of my 128gb transcend. I bought 2x256 sandisk when the price dropped last year. it just happen from time to time. I can go through a dozen of my 128 transcend continuously stopping only for card change.

May be we can start a new tread for this issue ^^

 

[cookinghusband]

Well, there is no real way to use this particular camera in a production environment without having the LV 'on'. Switching it on and off constantly does not really make sense, as you can not compose your shots without it, and apart from this, it does not seem to affect at all the temperature of the unit. The LV feed is routed to an HDMI monitor with a "no mirroring" setting, which is the usual way these things are done in cinema production. The camera gets hot during 4K recording, not from the LV. It probably does heat up the sensor slightly, but this is negligible - you can probably leave the LV on for a day and it won't get hot from only that (not that we have done this ) As a 'cinema' camera without an independent optical viewfinder, this camera relies entirely on LV to be operational.

As for the hot pixels, they are never there when the camera is cool, they are always there when the camera is warm. They have always been there, probably in every single unit. We have not caused them and we are not using the camera improperly.

As for the power, yesterday it was on battery power, as a battery pack lasts one hour without a problem, but usually we have it on AC power.

I guess I am one of the very few non-paid non professional non-cps guy who is using the 1DC. I had my annoying experience with the CS in HK in my 2yr+ owner ship

My operation time is usually at about 15/30/60/90 minute range for continuous operation ( event/documentary recording), the SC on my 1DC is in the range of 200K and over 100TB of footage. I bought it at (a bit more than $10K)since spring 2013 (as soon as they have surplus stock from the first batch of delivery I guess)

I just want to ask a few questions before I put my 1DC to the stress test.

1) What is your ambient temperature for your shoot?
2) I guess my 1DC already have hot spots on it already ? ^^
3) Exactly what brand of Memory card you are using?

One of my story with HK CS of Canon is that I got the mirror problem in April 2013( mirror failed and cause focus problem after about SC 100K) before they did the total recall for repair, it took them 3 weeks to find out what is the issue. Luckily HK is small and the CS centre is between my office and home, I went there 3 times, First time they take the camera in and return saying they have fixed it which they did not.
Then I take it there the other day saying it is not fixed, I replicate the fault on site to the staff there they wrote it down and sent camera to workshop.
There it wait another week then I call them, they said they cannot replicate the problem!!!!!! I end up telling the senior technician how to replicate it. One they replicated it, they said they have to check with the Japanese HQ and sort out the solution, another week past and they replace the whole mirror assembly and cleaned the señor.
From that experience I learnt that they have only one trained staff in Hong Kong to service the 1DC. ( probably the same in US)
Most of people the staff in Canon do not know of the existence of this 1DC, but they know when they see it. ( I guess they sold less 1DC than the C500)

PS they did not even send me a reminder to extend my warrantee for the 1DC while they did for my flash and lens.^^;

My advice is think carefully before you buy a C series camera unless you are a CPS member who can get a loaner when your camera needs repair. OR you are one of their test pilots.

I am waiting for a A7S MK2 with internal recording or a URSA mini now.

On the other hand, If they have a 1DC mk2, with DPAF, raw 4K, 60FPS 4K, I will still buy a new one again. (I can live with hot pixels)

 

[Geko]

...

I just want to ask a few questions before I put my 1DC to the stress test.

1) What is your ambient temperature for your shoot?
2) I guess my 1DC already have hot spots on it already ? ^^
3) Exactly what brand of Memory card you are using?

....

1) Relatively high, but not insane for Mexico - the hottest so far was something like 30C (86F), but we have this in mind, the camera is always in the shade, etc. Even though the loaner 1DC has hot pixels all over the image, we have so far seen the overheating warning only once, and for just two or three seconds. I have never seen it stay and have never seen a 1DC unit turn off because of overheating.

2) I hope not, but probably... The only way to know is to check it, but it is up to you. There are psychological consequences in doing this test, think it over well.

3. Delkin Devices CF 1050X UDMA7 128GB. The cards have nothing to do with the hot pixels, although they probably do have something to do with the occasional "Movie recording has stopped automatically" errors. These errors are sometimes very annoying and they were present in both our own camera, and now in the loaner unit. These cards are supposed to be quite good, btw.

As for the rest of your story, I can totally sympathize. 1DCMkII - this will never happen. However I am afraid that in the new C300MkII which is advertised as 4K capable, they may use some of their brilliant 1DC engineering (i.e. not providing adequate cooling). The giant heat sink in the C500 is there for a reason. If the new C300MkII appears without one it would be very, very bad.

 

[cookinghusband]

Just from my experience of using digital camera for the last 20 years the storage card and writing data to it is one of the major heat source contributing to the overheating of the camera and thus the Sensor.

From my experience of using the 1DC, your card is the most possible reason for "Movie recording has stopped automatically" errors, loose HDMI cable connection is another. As you might already know the CF card writing speed will decrease as it get fuller and hotter. The 1DC is a very demanding camera regarding CF card, I guess your card is not able to meet the write speed required when it get hot or full.

I had no problems with all my Transcend 1000x 128gb( they are quite reasonably priced. DO not buy the sandisk 256gb ones they have the "Movie recording has stopped automatically" errors plus "Movie recording cannot start again after stopping" errors, both of mine have this problem. Also not all card readers support the 256GB CF.

Also if you hold the camera on the grip with your right hand( where the CF card is) you are more likely to get the over heat bar. Since you are putting it on tripod you should not have a problem.

I guess I may not specifically perform the hot spot test ( do not want to sit without air-con at 30C for 30 mins), but I will try record a 5-10 min clip immediately after I have used the camera


Is less of a cost problem I have with C300mk2, just a SLR form factor is more suitable for my shooting style and environment. Size, weight and subtle look is important as well as IQ. Able to AF fast to take photos at >12FPS as a fall back option is also the reason why I bought the 1DC. You can tell by my >200K Shutter Count. I am more or less give up on Canon's marketing or maintenance performance, just I do like the colour and low light performance a bit more than other camera I have. I have all the different Panasonic 4K cameras and a A7s but when I need to a critical shoot I will always use the 1DC as main and the Sony or Panasonic as backup.

Thanks for sharing your story, wish you shooting get on well.

 

[Geko]

New developments in this case:

Three persons have contacted us after replicating the problem with their 1DC units, one other person claims that he could not replicate it, but admitted that he didn't follow our procedure. If we count the two units we have tried + the changed sensor in our first unit + several reports of hot pixels prior to our case, this brings the total number of failed 1DC units we know of to about 7-8 thus far - all with the exact same problem. We also learned of units with changed sensors because of hot pixel problems, which exhibited again the same problem after the repair - the same as with our camera. I think that based on this I can safely assume for myself that this case is clear, and is the worst case scenario - the 1DC is not capable of prolonged 4K usage by design. It was probably just a last minute offshoot of the 1DX, with no real R&D put into it. Someone at Canon was probably overenthusiastic and made a really bad decision.

In addition to that we have been communicating extensively with Canon during the past couple of weeks. Several people from Canon contacted us on their own accord. A few are trying to help with varying levels of success (in fact, nothing but words still), but generally the management on the decision making level is a tragic case. Two internal reports have been filed by Canon employees to the engineering division of the corporation in Japan for inadequate heating prevention algorithm and design flaw in the 1DC. To all intents and purposes it seems that everyone at this stage knows that the 1DC is indeed defective. Whether the corporation will try to hide/deny this in the future is open to speculation, but I have little doubt that they will keep to their stupid strategy. It seems that this is all they can do, and also we are probably bumping against some cultural differences/gap with Japan in this regard.

We have offered Canon a solution to this which suits us personally and would be good for them too. It doesn't really do anything for the other 1DC owners out there though. We are still waiting for an answer from them. In the meantime the possibility of a class action lawsuit has been reviewed by Morgan & Morgan and two other law firms in the US and Switzerland, and the conclusion is that this is entirely feasible based on the collected data and evidence. So whether we go that route will depend largely on Canon's answer.

What we positively know about the problem thus far:

1. Probably all Canon EOS 1DC units, upon moderate use in 4K mode start to have hot (red/blue/green), dead (black) and/or stuck (white) pixels. They show in all footage while the sensor is warm, very visible in 4K in the shadows and especially pronounced in S35 and lower resolution HD modes (where they become huge).

2. The bad pixels are only visible while the sensors are hot. With one notable exception so far, they do not seem to appear while the unit is still cool. Also, they do not appear on still images. Also, on lower resolution monitors they are sometimes hard to see. If you really want to see them shine, use a 4K production monitor. That's probably why many people do not seem to be aware of the problem.

3. The above mentioned behavior does not trigger any overheating warnings, nor does it generate errors in the internal memory log.

4. The behavior is probably reproducible in every 1DC unit out there, given the right circumstances.

5. Canon is fully aware of all this, and can not successfully repair 1DC units at this stage.

The unpleasant conclusion is that the 1DC is not really capable of real production use 4K. Recording live events and everything more than a couple of minutes of occasional 4K shooting is not really advisable, unless one wants to chase and mask hot pixels in post. (BTW, masking hot pixels in 4K has proven to be a very unpleasant and hard process, as the current available software for this is really meant for footage of lower resolution. A perfect job generally means frame-to-frame masking, which is an insane waste of time and resources.) It is still not clear if the damage done to the CMOS is progressive or one-time. The units we have tested so far seem to show the same number of bad pixels over time, but it has not been long enough to really determine if the situation will get worse with prolonged use.

So that's it, for now. For all of us who have bought this unit... we can definitely shoot in 4K to our hearts content, outside, during the winter, in near freezing conditions. Canon loves this kind of thing, it seems that this is their definition of a "cinema" camera. I have no doubt that arctic circle documentaries made with the 1DC in 4K will look stunning and will be artifact-free. For everything else, well, the bets are off.

 

[José Alkon]

Wow I'm speechless.

I wonder if Eli Roth's DP experienced any such problems on Knock Knock, a feature shot entirely on the 1DC.

I mainly shoot 4k for TVC, short films and music videos so takes are usually short and I turn off camera between scenes/location changes and blocking. All documentary work I have shot on s35 or 1080 but still try to turn off camera when I can, it must be my training of always conserving battery power when possible.

Thanks Geko for sharing these shocking findings and really sorry you've had this terrible ongoing experience.

 

[cpreston]

I just checked some of my videos that were shot at 4K. I have a few bad pixels. Most of the time I shoot at S35 and I never notice the issue, possibly because my pixels are nearer to the outside of the frame.

So, now what? A semi usable solution would be that Canon implements a black balance on the camera and releases a firmware update. It's not hard to do as the rest of the cameras have that option.

I have two thoughts. Many of the people that shoot with the 1DC probably don't edit at 4K. I didn't have a 4K monitor until this year and I still don't edit at 4K resolution most of the time. The second thought is that this kind of technology tends to have these type of issues based on my experience. Sensors overheat and have problems. Fixed noise. Bad pixels. Should we assume that this is out of the ordinary? I think we can assume that Canon will do everything they can to ignore the issue and their customers, but would a different company respond differently?

 

[mavs]

I just let my 1dc record for roughly 10 minutes at an ambient temp of 74F. Three hot pixels. I then waited roughly 20 minutes and recorded a couple quick takes. Hot pixels were gone initially, but after recording for a couple more minutes they came back in the same place. Next I tried 800 iso and 6400 iso with both high iso noise reduction on and off. At 800 iso the hot pixels are a non issue. At 6400 iso the hot pixels are very noticeable. (shot in complete darkness and viewed at 100% in a darkened room) After more experimenting, the hot pixels always disappear after a break from recording. Shooting long takes with very dark backgrounds and high iso will be noticeable.

 

[mavs]

After the 1dc, I tried the same procedure on a Canon7d quickly at 3200 iso. A couple hot pixels at about 10 minutes of live view and a minute of recording (under70F degrees ambient) Anyone have a 5d3 they'd be willing to check? Hot pixels don't seem to appear in stills mode, only video. I know some Nikons had/have this problem in video mode, but a firmware update supposedly added pixel mapping to solve the problem. Also thought I'd try my fs700+7q in 4k at 2000iso using same procedure and it had quite a few hot pixels as well. (although it can be black balanced/shaded)

 

[AlexNOR]

Geko, very sorry to hear about your issues and bad experience with Canon service.

I just want to clarify something. Please note I'm talking DSLR's in general, not 1Dc specific as I don't have personal experience with that model:

Hot pixels will appear in stills mode, but not during what is considered normal shooting. I don't know why for a fact, but I'm going to guess it is because the sensor never has a chance to get hot.

I sometimes do long exposure photography, which means my exposure times will vary between 2-30 minutes. Depending on the exposure time, if I do a couple in a row (or a very long one) , hot pixels will appear. I always shoot at ISO 100, because the tests I've done at higher ISO's (400 and 800) have more apparent hot pixels. I have seen this on both the 5D Mark III and 6D. Of course when shooting stills this is a minor issue and easy to fix in post.

It may be that the hot pixel issue is not specific to the 1Dc and 4K recording, but rather something all DSLR's have in common once pushed beyond a point.

 

[J Michael]

We are shooting in Mexico. Good luck trying to find a 1DC for rent here... In fact I am pretty sure that trying to do that would make for a pretty good documentary in it's own right. Thanks for the good words anyway.

Canon told us 3 days ago that we will be contacted by their "Customer relations" department in an effort to fix the situation. So far, they have not even bothered to write though, let alone do something meaningful.

Actually your story about your experiences with Canon would make an interesting doc.

 

[cookinghusband]

Geko, very sorry to hear about your issues and bad experience with Canon service.

I just want to clarify something. Please note I'm talking DSLR's in general, not 1Dc specific as I don't have personal experience with that model:

Hot pixels will appear in stills mode, but not during what is considered normal shooting. I don't know why for a fact, but I'm going to guess it is because the sensor never has a chance to get hot.

I sometimes do long exposure photography, which means my exposure times will vary between 2-30 minutes. Depending on the exposure time, if I do a couple in a row (or a very long one) , hot pixels will appear. I always shoot at ISO 100, because the tests I've done at higher ISO's (400 and 800) have more apparent hot pixels. I have seen this on both the 5D Mark III and 6D. Of course when shooting stills this is a minor issue and easy to fix in post.

It may be that the hot pixel issue is not specific to the 1Dc and 4K recording, but rather something all DSLR's have in common once pushed beyond a point.

I start to wonder if the C100, C300, C500 have them too?

 

[Geko]

Well, I take no pleasure seeing that you guys start confirming this here also, but at this stage this is not a surprise. We keep receiving these stories. Every 1DC out there has hot pixels.

As for if it is normal, no it is not. Footage with bright bad pixels... you just can not watch it. You just start watching the pixels. These cameras are not suitable for real production. We had a hell of a time editing the hot pixels out of our footage, and we used a real studio. This is not really a task for a home studio. Our documentary is now in the final stages of post - only the soundtrack mastering remains. The finished length is 42 minutes, taken out of 23 hours of raw material. The editing out of the hot pixels only from these 42 minutes took us weeks, and it is still not perfect. I hope the audience won't notice them but we still do, and will always do.

This is not a 'cinema' camera. The solution is still a lawsuit - we can bury them. Canon thinks they are above everything, but it is not so. They sold a 12K$ camera, which is not suitable for the job. Someone, somewhere has to take responsibility for this. I am still awaiting Canon's response, but our patience is growing very thin, and basically we are ready to start legal action tomorrow.

As for the C300 and C500, it would be really bad if these cameras have the same issues, although I hope they don't. For one thing, they have active fan cooling unlike the 1DC. This should make a difference. But who knows... nothing can surprise me at this stage.

As for hot pixel remapping - this technology does work, but it is not available in the 1DC. They can add it by firmware update, if they make the firmware public as it should be. They may be working on it right now, although I am not placing my bets on this.

 

[Jim Martin]

I start to wonder if the C100, C300, C500 have them too?

No.....

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

 

[Geko]

I start to wonder if the C100, C300, C500 have them too?

No.....

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Well, in fact since this is mainly a 4K problem, and since the C100 and C300 currently do not do 4K, and the C500 is probably owned by just a couple of people (and it does have a giant heatsink and active cooling) we really would not know if this thing will continue. The new C300mkII doesn't look good from the pictures - it lacks the heatsink of the C500, and the current advertising reminds me very much of the advertising of the 1DC - "4K in a small package" and all... We will see, but the performance of the C300mkII will be a dealbreaker for their 'cinema' line.

 

[marvinhello]

Well, in fact since this is mainly a 4K problem, and since the C100 and C300 currently do not do 4K, and the C500 is probably owned by just a couple of people (and it does have a giant heatsink and active cooling) we really would not know if this thing will continue. The new C300mkII doesn't look good from the pictures - it lacks the heatsink of the C500, and the current advertising reminds me very much of the advertising of the 1DC - "4K in a small package" and all... We will see, but the performance of the C300mkII will be a dealbreaker for their 'cinema' line.

C100/300/500 has Black Balance feature.

 

[Jim Martin]

Well, in fact since this is mainly a 4K problem, and since the C100 and C300 currently do not do 4K, and the C500 is probably owned by just a couple of people (and it does have a giant heatsink and active cooling) we really would not know if this thing will continue. The new C300mkII doesn't look good from the pictures - it lacks the heatsink of the C500, and the current advertising reminds me very much of the advertising of the 1DC - "4K in a small package" and all... We will see, but the performance of the C300mkII will be a dealbreaker for their 'cinema' line.

Sorry that you've had problems with the 1DC but to equate that to the C100/300/500 would not be accurate. The 1DC chip is not the same as the C line. While the 1DC is part of the Cinema EOS line, it is made by the still division, not the video division. The 4K chip in the C series is the same in all three cameras and has not experienced the problems you're having with the 1DC. As for "performance of the C300 MK II will be a deal breaker for the cinema line", that is 100% not correct and has nothing to do with your problems so please don't try to "spread it" on the C line....it's a disservice to your fellow posters and people who read this forum.
Thanks!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

 

[Geko]

Sorry that you've had problems with the 1DC but to equate that to the C100/300/500 would not be accurate. The 1DC chip is not the same as the C line. While the 1DC is part of the Cinema EOS line, it is made by the still division, not the video division. The 4K chip in the C series is the same in all three cameras and has not experienced the problems you're having with the 1DC. As for "performance of the C300 MK II will be a deal breaker for the cinema line", that is 100% not correct and has nothing to do with your problems so please don't try to "spread it" on the C line....it's a disservice to your fellow posters and people who read this forum.
Thanks!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Jim, I understand what you are saying, but the EOS 1DC is part of Canon's "C" line, like it or not. And we, and many other people, bought it because of that. It never carried a warning "Developed by Canon's still division", and this is the whole issue. It has been marketed as a "C" line camera by Canon, and there is no other authority on the issue apart from Canon themselves on this regard.

And yes, the performance of the C300mkII will be a dealbreaker for the whole line as it will be the first accessible 4K cinema camera Canon will put in the hands of a wider client base. If you can not shoot, say, a concert with it in 4K without having to deal with artifacts it will be the end of this line. The only saving grace Canon has right now is that nearly no one is using their equipment for real 4K production. That's it, and it will change very soon, as the equipment necessary for 4K use is becoming very accessible. Then it will boil down to whether your camera can really do it or not. The 1DC can not. We have no real data on the C500, so we don't really know if Canon are capable at all of harnessing this technology. So far the evidence is totally not in their favor.

I can understand that many of you are very happy with the C100 and C300. That's great, but these are not 4K cameras. Wait until the C300mkII comes out and then decide. Right now all I am saying is that Canon has 1 pathetic failure and ZERO success attempts in this segment.

I can only be happy if the other C line cameras do not exhibit the same problem in 4K, as I would hate to know that other people went through what we went through.