You've shown yourself to be more than gracious and patient under the circumstances, Geko. Given this fiasco has gone on for this long already I'd be hitting up the social channels ASAP. In the one or two instances I've had to go social nuclear in the past it has gotten immediate results. Post your examples, post the support failures to date and shout it from the roof tops!
1DC: Dead Pixels, random errors, terrible support... anyone else?
- Thread starter Geko
- Start date
The camera seems to be moving again (Link) There is a rescheduled delivery time for tomorrow! Canon delayed it for two whole days! We already should have received the loaner unit and it is not even sent yet.
As for the publicity move, this probably will happen today. I requested an explanation from Canon and I am also waiting for some information from our legal counsel, who are currently reviewing the case history.
As for the publicity move, this probably will happen today. I requested an explanation from Canon and I am also waiting for some information from our legal counsel, who are currently reviewing the case history.
The delivery of our camera to Canon has been re-scheduled for Friday! This is automatic, Canon did not request it from UPS. On the phone we found out that Canon had no clue about this and they thought that the camera was coming to them. We explained them that since they stopped it, they have to as for it again. They said they would. They didn't. UPS told us that the camera will not move unless Canon calls them.
Apart from this we received three repeated assurances that the loaner would be sent yesterday with overnight delivery - two by e-mail and one in person on the phone with Mike Schimmel from Canon's headquarters. This did not happen, as of this moment no loaner has been sent.
Additionally we were unofficially (from another person at Canon) given the explanation that since we were not "a big production house" Canon "does not care at all what happens to this case" and "they are capable of giving you the runaround until the end of days".
As of yesterday I am following the advice of our lawyers regarding the whole issue. I will still update the thread.
Apart from this we received three repeated assurances that the loaner would be sent yesterday with overnight delivery - two by e-mail and one in person on the phone with Mike Schimmel from Canon's headquarters. This did not happen, as of this moment no loaner has been sent.
Additionally we were unofficially (from another person at Canon) given the explanation that since we were not "a big production house" Canon "does not care at all what happens to this case" and "they are capable of giving you the runaround until the end of days".
As of yesterday I am following the advice of our lawyers regarding the whole issue. I will still update the thread.
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We received a tracking number for the loaner. It too is stuck however now in the same UPS warehouse in Louisville. Canon does not explain why.
Additionally I just received a letter from a person named Juanda - a "Senior Supervisor for Canon Executive Response". This is the first deliberately polite letter we receive and the first one which actually contains something resembling an apology for the situation. Apart from that, it does not say anything new.
After some deliberation I decided to reply and urged Juanda to read this thread. It seems that if this happens we will be getting as close to a miracle as humanly possible. And... just imagine what could happen if someone from Canon actually replies and acknowledges the customers' concerns :shocked: Then it can be heaven on Earth, flowers will bloom in winter... the effects will probably be felt across the galaxy and physical laws can change a little.
Let's hope, and pray!! :engel017:
Additionally I just received a letter from a person named Juanda - a "Senior Supervisor for Canon Executive Response". This is the first deliberately polite letter we receive and the first one which actually contains something resembling an apology for the situation. Apart from that, it does not say anything new.
After some deliberation I decided to reply and urged Juanda to read this thread. It seems that if this happens we will be getting as close to a miracle as humanly possible. And... just imagine what could happen if someone from Canon actually replies and acknowledges the customers' concerns :shocked: Then it can be heaven on Earth, flowers will bloom in winter... the effects will probably be felt across the galaxy and physical laws can change a little.
Let's hope, and pray!! :engel017:
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I see that someone took the time to cast a negative vote on all my postings in this thread, so if people feel negative about me documenting this issue here, please say so. Although this may seem as if we are using the forum to resolve a private problem with Canon, I feel that this has long ago moved past this phase, and since now Canon are very involved all this can be helpful to many more people, even if only to make informed decisions regarding future purchases and relationships with this company.
We just revived a call from UPS informing us that in order to receive the loaner camera we should pay 600$US in customs duties - the camera has not been sent with the proper paperwork. In addition to this, the postal code it is traveling with has no resemblance whatsoever to our code and the camera is now in a neighboring state.
In addition to that since yesterday we started receiving emails from different people in Canon, and one of them proposed that we meet soon here in Mexico, in order to possibly discuss, among other things, wether we would want to buy a C300MkII.
I can not really comment on these things apart to say that we have been cheated yet again by Canon and left without a camera, again, while in production. With no prospects of acquiring one any of these days.
We just revived a call from UPS informing us that in order to receive the loaner camera we should pay 600$US in customs duties - the camera has not been sent with the proper paperwork. In addition to this, the postal code it is traveling with has no resemblance whatsoever to our code and the camera is now in a neighboring state.
In addition to that since yesterday we started receiving emails from different people in Canon, and one of them proposed that we meet soon here in Mexico, in order to possibly discuss, among other things, wether we would want to buy a C300MkII.
I can not really comment on these things apart to say that we have been cheated yet again by Canon and left without a camera, again, while in production. With no prospects of acquiring one any of these days.
Canon is chaos-panic mode right now. We keep receiving letters and phone calls from employees at different levels, divisions and Canon centers. Everything has been stirred up. A pattern emerges - those who are lower in the corporate hierarchy generally understand that Canon has messed up big deal and want to help, but can not do much. Those on higher positions have no clue what is going on and just send stupid letters. Someone somewhere seems to have sorted out the UPS mess and now Canon is covering all expenses on the loaner, which on one occasion already, has been (maybe mistakenly) called a "replacement" in a letter. We still have not received it though.
Additionally, i keep receiving some very sensitive and interesting information over the phone by Canon people who seem to be pissed off by the handling of the whole issue by the corporation. One such detail is the actual, internal cost of a EOS 1DC unit! I am sure many of you will be very interested in this (and then pissed off). I will not write it down now, but I will share this information when our saga is over with all the other details we learned on the way from internal sources.
Additionally, i keep receiving some very sensitive and interesting information over the phone by Canon people who seem to be pissed off by the handling of the whole issue by the corporation. One such detail is the actual, internal cost of a EOS 1DC unit! I am sure many of you will be very interested in this (and then pissed off). I will not write it down now, but I will share this information when our saga is over with all the other details we learned on the way from internal sources.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
Why would we be pissed off?
Do you think people think the 1Dc is much more expensive to produce than a 1Dx? They are basically the same, and I hope the 1Dx already has a healthy margin.
These products aren't made in some garage (even if you might feel so by now) and then the price becomes the sum of the parts plus some overhead.
The 1Dc price is, OF COURSE, completely synthetic. The price made the camera exclusive to those willing to pay for it.
It's as if the C300 mkII would be much more expensive to make than a C100 mkII. Of course it isn't.
The prices are always more than the cost of materials used, but apart from that it is all positioning, status and over arching strategies.
Apart from that I hope you get a working camera soon. Really crazy story.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
You bought a camera, it turned out to be defective while you were in another country, so you internationally sent it to Canon, and they thought they fixed it, but didn't, then tried again and they couldn't fix it, then after that they offered they take the camera for a long inspection while giving you a loaner to test (and see if your specific camera was the only one defective or not and to use it the time they are repairing your camera), but you declined the offer and then after a little while you
agreed and sent your camera for repair but the loaner is taking more time to ship to you.
That's the legal, objective situation if I understood well.
Keep us updated on whether the loaner model shows the same defect, because if it doesn't then you simply got a defective model and they tried to fix it for free but it took time and it cost you shipping, and if it shows the same defect as it shows on many or all other 1Dc models, then you'll be able to fight them for making and selling a product that does not work, and your words will be bullets and spread all over the world that the 1DC is a defective camera with a bad Sensor unit.
It all depends on whether this is a single defective camera or if it will show up on the loaner.
I do feel your pain and how frustrating it is to lose so much work time for repairing the camera and to lose the money for shipping it,
The things they can be accused of for now are
1-Their repair service couldn't fix the problem but mistaked they did
2-The loaner camera is late
I am just trying to help you see how a court would look at it. They however will not be accused of having built a defective camera, because that's covered and that's why warranty exists, and they wont be accused of charging you money because they didn't, they tried to fix the camera two times for free, it was shipping that you paid for, and 3-their polite tone and offer to loan you a camera will not be a strong case for you to accuse that it was late.
Again I empathize with your frustration. It's strange because Canon cameras are very rearely defective and Canon after sale service is one of the best all over the globe, and bevause the 1Dc is internationally recognized to deliver one of the best digital images that exist. So hearing a defective Canon + bad treatment + 1DC being a defective image, is a bit too strange,
agreed and sent your camera for repair but the loaner is taking more time to ship to you.
That's the legal, objective situation if I understood well.
Keep us updated on whether the loaner model shows the same defect, because if it doesn't then you simply got a defective model and they tried to fix it for free but it took time and it cost you shipping, and if it shows the same defect as it shows on many or all other 1Dc models, then you'll be able to fight them for making and selling a product that does not work, and your words will be bullets and spread all over the world that the 1DC is a defective camera with a bad Sensor unit.
It all depends on whether this is a single defective camera or if it will show up on the loaner.
I do feel your pain and how frustrating it is to lose so much work time for repairing the camera and to lose the money for shipping it,
The things they can be accused of for now are
1-Their repair service couldn't fix the problem but mistaked they did
2-The loaner camera is late
I am just trying to help you see how a court would look at it. They however will not be accused of having built a defective camera, because that's covered and that's why warranty exists, and they wont be accused of charging you money because they didn't, they tried to fix the camera two times for free, it was shipping that you paid for, and 3-their polite tone and offer to loan you a camera will not be a strong case for you to accuse that it was late.
Again I empathize with your frustration. It's strange because Canon cameras are very rearely defective and Canon after sale service is one of the best all over the globe, and bevause the 1Dc is internationally recognized to deliver one of the best digital images that exist. So hearing a defective Canon + bad treatment + 1DC being a defective image, is a bit too strange,
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Thanks Ebrahim. This is a very good objective analysis. Of course the subjective experience of being lied to for four months, of having to wait for a simple e-mail answer for weeks at a time, of being given the runaround in every possible way etc. etc., and of generally having to deal with utterly unprofessional people is something else.
After all this I am inclined to think that the 1DC is defective by design, and this also correlates with some corroborating evidence we have gathered, but as you say this is not proven at this point. The loaner will be immediately put to the test. What has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt is that an unknown entity buying a 1DC can not rely on any decent support from Canon.
I agree. That was the reasoning behind our decision to buy a 12K Canon camera. Sadly things turned out... strange, as you say.
Andree, absolutely correct. Still it was interesting for me to find out the real numbers. We bought this camera when it was at the 12K price point, so this makes the contrast more stark.
After all this I am inclined to think that the 1DC is defective by design, and this also correlates with some corroborating evidence we have gathered, but as you say this is not proven at this point. The loaner will be immediately put to the test. What has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt is that an unknown entity buying a 1DC can not rely on any decent support from Canon.
I agree. That was the reasoning behind our decision to buy a 12K Canon camera. Sadly things turned out... strange, as you say.
Andree, absolutely correct. Still it was interesting for me to find out the real numbers. We bought this camera when it was at the 12K price point, so this makes the contrast more stark.
cpreston
Veteran
I am inclined to think that you got a bad unit. I have shot my 1DC at 4K until the cards run out and not had a problem. We also know that Canon has built in a fail safe that will shut the camera down if the sensor gets too hot.
As for your communication issues with Canon, that does not surprise me at all. Everything I've seen points to a general ignorance of the 1DC at the lower levels, and a general desire to disown the 1DC at the higher levels. If you actually managed to get somebody at Canon to pay attention to 1DC owners through all of your work or at least recognize that they screwed up on some level, I will be extremely grateful.
As for your communication issues with Canon, that does not surprise me at all. Everything I've seen points to a general ignorance of the 1DC at the lower levels, and a general desire to disown the 1DC at the higher levels. If you actually managed to get somebody at Canon to pay attention to 1DC owners through all of your work or at least recognize that they screwed up on some level, I will be extremely grateful.
I really wish that you turn out right - for the sake of our own project if nothing else. What points to a different scenario is that we burned out two sensors, not one. And I have never seen the unit turn off at all, despite it feeling quite hot to the touch. And I have only seen the overheating symbol on the display once, and when it appeared the camera didn't stop. This may actually be a clue that the unit is indeed defective. Or, they messed up and the units actually do not turn off, although it is claimed that they do. We will see.
We have several people who sympathize and really try to help on the level of the "Pro Market - Business Development Division", but this is not very high. We have two persons scratching their heads and trying to avoid responsibility on the level of "Senior Supervisor" at the "CS Executive Response" division. And we have several people higher up from there, who could not care less and wish that we didn't exist. And we have an R&D senior engineer who thinks that there may be something seriously wrong with potentially bad implications for Canon. But it will not end here, this has stirred a lot of levels and there are at least two internal investigations on the matter going on, possibly three. So... we'll see.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
Yes, I did too. I pre-ordered mine and I'm pretty sure I got one of the first units shipped to Switzerland. A high price has a few advantages for you as an owner operator, but when it comes time to sell it might very well work against you. We see some of that in the Cx00 line where Canon has been able to dump prices quite a bit (especially C300) in order to clear supplies.
I think expensive gear like this has to be some sort of business decision where the camera makes more money for you than you spend on it. Then it's all good.
I know people probably would not bother, but I propose those of you who are confident in your 1DC units to do the following test:
1. Leave Live View ON for 10 minutes
2. Set ISO 4000 and start recording on 4K mode for another 10 minutes (just leave the camera and let it record)
3. Stop recording, immediately switch to one of the standard HD modes, put a lens cap on and record in HD for further 5 minutes.
4. Look at the HD recording carefully.
I would be surprised if you see a totally clean image, but at the same time I would be happy if this is the case. If you post your findings here, together with the last three digits of the serial number of your camera it would be great. Our unit SN is *016
1. Leave Live View ON for 10 minutes
2. Set ISO 4000 and start recording on 4K mode for another 10 minutes (just leave the camera and let it record)
3. Stop recording, immediately switch to one of the standard HD modes, put a lens cap on and record in HD for further 5 minutes.
4. Look at the HD recording carefully.
I would be surprised if you see a totally clean image, but at the same time I would be happy if this is the case. If you post your findings here, together with the last three digits of the serial number of your camera it would be great. Our unit SN is *016
EOS 1DC defective by design - confirmed
EOS 1DC defective by design - confirmed
Hi Ebrahim and all...
Well, it seems that we reached the words-bullets stage. After our first shoot with the loaner camera yesterday, which was an outdoor interview 1 hour shoot with about ten 1 minutes takes in 4K, we are observing four groups of hot pixels in the footage - two blue, one red and one faint white. The camera did get quite warm, but displayed no overheating warning, nor any other kind of warning. The camera has serial number 022011000059, came with 11 000 shutter actuations but to all intents and purposes looks totally brand new - not a scratch. This was probably some internal test unit. We did not try to destroy it, we did not want it to have the same problem - we just used it as intended for one hour and we knew what to look for in the footage afterwards.
You can download a video sample of the problem from here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9niad7v8zj1qmh/EOS1DC_Hot_Pixels001.m4v?dl=1 It is not easy to see and it is compressed, but if you turn the brightness of your monitors on maximum and if your monitor surface is clean, and if you look carefully, you will see them. They are not as bright as the ones on our own unit, but they are there. A high definition video is currently being uploaded to Youtube, but it will take some time as it is a 2GB file, and I don't know what will happen to it after YT's compression.
So... I have spoken today with our law firm in the US and it seems that we will be moving towards a class action lawsuit. At this stage I am 100% confident that every 1DC unit out there which has been used extensively in 4K mode has this problem. The hot pixels however can be very difficult to see, especially for shoots at well lit sets or in the outdoors and I am sure many owners are not aware that their footage is not clean. We checked our earliest footage, from one year ago, and to our surprise we found the hot pixels in all of it, although it took us 4 more months to actually notice them. I am sure all 1DC units have them. Just leave your unit recording in 4K until a card is full, then immediately make another short recording of a neutral dark background and put the cap on, and you will see them. Sorry about that. Too bad for Canon.
EOS 1DC defective by design - confirmed
Hi Ebrahim and all...
Well, it seems that we reached the words-bullets stage. After our first shoot with the loaner camera yesterday, which was an outdoor interview 1 hour shoot with about ten 1 minutes takes in 4K, we are observing four groups of hot pixels in the footage - two blue, one red and one faint white. The camera did get quite warm, but displayed no overheating warning, nor any other kind of warning. The camera has serial number 022011000059, came with 11 000 shutter actuations but to all intents and purposes looks totally brand new - not a scratch. This was probably some internal test unit. We did not try to destroy it, we did not want it to have the same problem - we just used it as intended for one hour and we knew what to look for in the footage afterwards.
You can download a video sample of the problem from here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9niad7v8zj1qmh/EOS1DC_Hot_Pixels001.m4v?dl=1 It is not easy to see and it is compressed, but if you turn the brightness of your monitors on maximum and if your monitor surface is clean, and if you look carefully, you will see them. They are not as bright as the ones on our own unit, but they are there. A high definition video is currently being uploaded to Youtube, but it will take some time as it is a 2GB file, and I don't know what will happen to it after YT's compression.
So... I have spoken today with our law firm in the US and it seems that we will be moving towards a class action lawsuit. At this stage I am 100% confident that every 1DC unit out there which has been used extensively in 4K mode has this problem. The hot pixels however can be very difficult to see, especially for shoots at well lit sets or in the outdoors and I am sure many owners are not aware that their footage is not clean. We checked our earliest footage, from one year ago, and to our surprise we found the hot pixels in all of it, although it took us 4 more months to actually notice them. I am sure all 1DC units have them. Just leave your unit recording in 4K until a card is full, then immediately make another short recording of a neutral dark background and put the cap on, and you will see them. Sorry about that. Too bad for Canon.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Please 1DC owners: test for this it's getting important. Shoot something neutral (not a lens cap) and upload a Tiff.
They won't see anything if the sensor is not very well warmed up beforehand. I am afraid that since no one really wants to find out that his/her own camera is defective (and this can also have some other, even business implications), no one will actually follow the procedure. For the hot pixels to become visible in the footage, the camera has to feel quite warm to the touch (although no warning indicator will be visible). Only 10-15+ minutes of constant 4K recording can accomplish this fast. Otherwise you have to leave LV 'on' for about an hour or so, as is in typical shooting conditions.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I didn't have to look very carefully to see two pixels immediately.
Did you not try the camera before the interview? Would be interesting to know if your shooting style provoked it, or if the camera came faulty (would have been incredible). And I'm not saying you're using it wrong—it would just be good to know if your extended takes (not that one minute can be called that) caused it.
I don't have this on my camera, and I'm sure as hell not going to provoke it with zero upsides for me. I mostly do shorter takes. I wouldn't reach 5 minutes for one take, but I've reached more than one minute for sure. I won't cut a clip short in fear of this, but it also makes no sense to test it to see if something breaks.
Sorry for your bad experience. Should be possible for you to get your money back, plus expenses. I don't remeber if the fine print talks of dead pixels....
Did you not try the camera before the interview? Would be interesting to know if your shooting style provoked it, or if the camera came faulty (would have been incredible). And I'm not saying you're using it wrong—it would just be good to know if your extended takes (not that one minute can be called that) caused it.
I don't have this on my camera, and I'm sure as hell not going to provoke it with zero upsides for me. I mostly do shorter takes. I wouldn't reach 5 minutes for one take, but I've reached more than one minute for sure. I won't cut a clip short in fear of this, but it also makes no sense to test it to see if something breaks.
Sorry for your bad experience. Should be possible for you to get your money back, plus expenses. I don't remeber if the fine print talks of dead pixels....
I can understand why you would not like to provoke it. I am sure other people will feel that way too, and I would also if I was on the other end of all this.
To your question - not really, it came like this. We did a 5 minute clip the day it came just to see if anything obvious was there, but it was clean, and I also hesitated to test it properly, because I was absolutely certain that it would also be defective. But when we started to shoot, we had to shoot... so it showed. Nothing unusual in our shooting style - a tripod mounted camera, with external HDMI monitor, in the shade. K4 mode with the usual settings (non log, in this case). LV constantly 'on' for about an hour, with about ten 1 minutes takes with some pauses between them. The hot pixels are visible from the first 5 minutes onwards.
When the camera is cold, it will not show. When it gets warm, all dead pixels will show. As it gets warmer still, they start to shine more brightly. If you switch to S35, they will be gigantic. That's it, in brief.
Don't test your camera and well being, it is not really worth it. But share the info, as someone out there will have the guts to verify it.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
When I read this in your previous post, and how here again, something inside me goes "uh-oh". I have never had any bad experiences myself, but think I remember reading (long time ago) that LV should be off when not in use. I am pretty certain that your always on LV strongly contributes to your issues.
When the 1Dc was launched it was pretty clear that Canon was red lining the camera to get it to do 4k internally. People had to protest pretty loudly for Canon to go from 24fps to 25fps in a fw update. Shoot with it as you see fit, but definitely let it rest between takes by shutting LV off. I guess it's too late for that now though? If the camera is cool, are the stuck pixels still there or can you start fresh?
Why do you leave LV on (would burn unnecessary battery)? How do you power the camera?
Well, there is no real way to use this particular camera in a production environment without having the LV 'on'. Switching it on and off constantly does not really make sense, as you can not compose your shots without it, and apart from this, it does not seem to affect at all the temperature of the unit. The LV feed is routed to an HDMI monitor with a "no mirroring" setting, which is the usual way these things are done in cinema production. The camera gets hot during 4K recording, not from the LV. It probably does heat up the sensor slightly, but this is negligible - you can probably leave the LV on for a day and it won't get hot from only that (not that we have done this
) As a 'cinema' camera without an independent optical viewfinder, this camera relies entirely on LV to be operational. As for the hot pixels, they are never there when the camera is cool, they are always there when the camera is warm. They have always been there, probably in every single unit. We have not caused them and we are not using the camera improperly.
As for the power, yesterday it was on battery power, as a battery pack lasts one hour without a problem, but usually we have it on AC power.