Dance recital; low light, and P2 card shortage

Green Tree Digital said:
Soundfx4, if you do not want to zoom in and want to leave the camera where it is then you won't have to fool around with focus much. But I would ask you, how fun will that be to watch? It is one thing to see an event in person from a distance but to watch on TV from a distance with the same shot for an hour or so. To me that is boring to watch.
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I completely agree; I'd rather do it with something like four or five cameras that move and transition with the music etc (I know you all said two, not five. Five just sounds more fun :p ). But the dancers (and parents) have constantly complained about the previous transitions and they really just want to see the entire dance. The winter show I did with my consumer camera was stationary and everyone that's watched it liked that they could see the dance the entire time. I'm just going by what they say they want. I wouldn't mind having a two camera set up, but if I go that route I definitely couldn't use a P2 camera (170 or 300) since I'm having enough trouble finding the 64 gig e series cards I need for just one P2 camera :\

(I can't see doing it with 32 gig P2 cards at DVCPRO HD's bitrate, I'd probably need quite a few right?)
 
I'd say that either the video wasn't edited properly then, or that only one or two parents complained because they were the type who couldn't stand to not see their kid the whole time.
 
David Jimerson said:
Neither one will be adequate, unless you have TONS of experience already, and even then it's not preferable. An external HD monitor is a very, very, very good idea.

The LCD is SD vertically, where it matters most to the eye. The viewfinder IS nice, but it's still very, very small.
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blech...well that sounds kind of crappy :\ if I ever end up using the 300, I'll rent an external HD display with it.
 
subtleinspiration said:
I'd say that either the video wasn't edited properly then, or that only one or two parents complained because they were the type who couldn't stand to not see their kid the whole time.
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Well yeah, the video never looked that great, but the big complaint that I always hear about is from the dancers themselves. The dancers want to see the entire dance.

It's not likely that the parents would complain about not being able to see their kid the entire time because with SD detail...well you can see which one is your kid, but you can't actually see your kid unless you get a tighter shot. It's more likely that the parents would complain about the camera never moving in close enough to actually be able to see there kid. But if it's HD they shouldn't (but probably will) have anything to complain about.

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time I guess :\
 
Well, HD will definitely be sharper, but at the distance required to frame the entire stage, I don't think you're going to have enough detail to really see the kids that much better.
 
I might just have to drop this project...I can't get a hold of any P2 cards. I just got off the phone with another A/V shop and they don't rent them. Stage sound only has two cameras to rent and they're both P2 cameras. Nobody rents AVCHD cameras...I've hit a brick wall.

Scratch that, Stage Sound rents the HMC-150! I can easily obtain SDHC cards and at a lower bit rate I won't need as many >.< a few people here have mentioned the 150 so that reinforces my optimism about this camera :)
 
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subtleinspiration said:
Perhaps you might need to bite the bullet and rent some HDV cameras?
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hehe, yeah. I actually might have to. Bah, I've seen HDV footage, and it doesn't look bad, I just can't stop thinking "compressed widescreen" :\ It's a stretch but I'm sure my local TV stations have some P2 card...now getting a hold of them is probably not going to happen, but I suppose it can't hurt to call and ask. After that fails though (as I'm sure it will) I'll run down to stagesound to tell them the 300 just isn't going to happen, or any P2 camera for that matter.

Panasonic's website doesn't say that stage sound rents the AG-HMC150, but I think I saw it in their show room and a few people here have mentioned that camera.
 
Soundfx4 said:
hehe, yeah. I actually might have to. Bah, I've seen HDV footage, and it doesn't look bad, I just can't stop thinking "compressed widescreen" :\
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This is the weakest argument against HDV. Many pro formats including DVCPROHD use horisontal subsampling. And subtleinspiration beat me with HD Lite link.
 
correct me if i'm wrong, but could one record direct DVCPro HD Direct to hard drive using something similar to OnLocation, negating the need for extra p2 cards?
 
KnoxHotch said:
correct me if i'm wrong, but could one record direct DVCPro HD Direct to hard drive using something similar to OnLocation, negating the need for extra p2 cards?
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I was thinking about this, but on top of my preference of AVC-intra, I would be worried about onlocation crashing or something. Not to mention the operating system potentially crashing, etc. I'd just feel more comfortable with a dedicated system for recording as opposed to software. :\
 
SoundFX4, since it sounds like you are going to do a straight cuts only type of editing, and not add a lot of grading or effects, the 35mb Mpeg2 8bit 4:2:0 video that Sony EX1R and JVC HM700 create would be better options than HDV, and supported by a wide variety of NLEs.

The JVC HM700 records to SDHC cards in either a mp4 (windows) or Mov (Apples) wrapper.

The JVC is a 3 CCD based 720p native camera that can scale up to 1080p in camera when recording.

The Sony EX1R camera is full raster 1920x1080p using 1/2" CMOS and has less skew than the 300. It also has better low light and a wider lens (but shorter telephoto) than the 300. There are very affordable options to the SxS cards used in the Sony, check over in the Sony EX section for great info on that.
You can buy 32gig SDHC cards probably cheaper than you can rent a P2.

A 16gig SXS or SDHC card can hold 55 minutes of 35mb 1080p footage on either system and both have dual slots so they are hot swappable. 2 32gb cards provide up to 220 mintues for recording time.

If you don't want 720p, I would recommend 1080x30p (actually 29.98) instead of 24p. For fast motion, it will look crisper, but still have a more filmic look.

Good luck on your endeaver.
 
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A lot of it will apply to the 300. Some of it won't. Basic operations will mostly apply, but the menus are rearranged considerably. And, obviously, there's nothing about AVC-Intra in it.

It'll apply to the 150 to some extent, but I wouldn't recommend it for 150 users. (Though DVX100 users have said they've found it quite helpful.)
 
How can you learn the 300 in a garage for two days and think you will be successful at a LIVE event your first time out? There's a million things that can and will go wrong, do you have the experience to predict them or take care of them in real time? Live is all about Murphy's Law.

Roanoke, VA will have plenty of seasoned shooters, perhaps get a two hour tutorial for cheap? The best situation: be the ASSISTANT to a DP you hire cheap, perhaps on Craigslist, then observe and ask a zillion questions so the NEXT recital you will know how the 300 will handle the situation. That is the best way to learn what to do.

Part of working professionally is to sense when a train wreck is coming and either slow down, switch tracks or jump from the locomotive at the last second. Don't let ego get in the way, be realistic. Being technically adept is only one part of it: even if it's a simple recital it is a LIVE event, people are counting on you to NOT screw up, the chances of a rookie making it through with a pro looking product are very minimal. I know because I have to hire a lot of rookies but I wouldn't for a live event, or if I was forced to I would give them something easier to handle than the 300. I have shot many of my daughter's recitals (for free of course) and they have the same issues as a thirty person crew shooting a big concert.

I only communicate with non-anonymous dvxuser pros (I figure if they're professional they wouldn't be afraid of being identified) so this is my only two cents worth. In summary: Get a pro (cheaply) to show you the ropes. Live events are, well, LIVE! Good luck.
 
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nedcam said:
How can you learn the 300 in a garage for two days and think you will be successful at a LIVE event your first time out? There's a million things that can and will go wrong, do you have the experience to predict them or take care of them in real time? Live is all about Murphy's Law.

Roanoke, VA will have plenty of seasoned shooters, perhaps get a two hour tutorial for cheap? The best situation: be the ASSISTANT to a DP you hire cheap, perhaps on Craigslist, then observe and ask a zillion questions so the NEXT recital you will know how the 300 will handle the situation. That is the best way to learn what to do.

Part of working professionally is to sense when a train wreck is coming and either slow down, switch tracks or jump from the locomotive at the last second. Don't let ego get in the way, be realistic. Being technically adept is only one part of it: even if it's a simple recital it is a LIVE event, people are counting on you to NOT screw up, the chances of a rookie making it through with a pro looking product are very minimal. I know because I have to hire a lot of rookies but I wouldn't for a live event, or if I was forced to I would give them something easier to handle than the 300. I have shot many of my daughter's recitals (for free of course) and they have the same issues as a thirty person crew shooting a big concert.

I only communicate with non-anonymous dvxuser pros (I figure if they're professional they wouldn't be afraid of being identified) so this is my only two cents worth. In summary: Get a pro (cheaply) to show you the ropes. Live events are, well, LIVE! Good luck.
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Well I'm not using the 300 anymore, I'll be using the HMC-150. The biggest reason though is because I simply can not get a hold of the P2 cards I needed. But at any rate, I really don't have an ego, and I wasn't by any means taking the 300 lightly (I'm sure that's the impression a lot of people got though from some of the things I said and that is understandable as I said a lot of things out of frustration). I've actually been worried about using the 300 from the start, but a lot of reading (the manual and many many things online) would be enough to where when I get the camera in my hands, I can actually concentrate on learning the camera immediately (as apposed to "okay now where's this button" scenarios). But that doesn't mean I thought everything would be okay, nor does it mean that I thought I'd know the camera inside and out in just two days. My friends and family can vouch for me that I'm anything but full of myself. In fact, I'm way past modest, and all the way down at the low self esteem level, even about things that I've been told I'm really good at. I'm critical of myself , I always feel I could have done something better (even if I'm told I did it flawlessly) and that's just how I am. :bath: (I don't necessarily think the little bath smiley is appropriate, I just like him haha)

The idea for seeking out a professional in the area is a fantastic one, and one I'll likely follow up on! The more experience I can get, the better. As far as your tutorial suggestion, I actually have intentions of taking college courses in video production and will likely be registering for classes very soon at my local community college :) I'm quite excited about this actully; I do have a decent bit of knowledge about the technical aspects, but I'm sure I haven't even hit the tip of the ice burg and am quite excited to learn more!

Thanks much for the contribution, especially and particularly the idea of looking for professionals in the area that I can leech experience from :bath:
 
David Jimerson said:
A lot of it will apply to the 300. Some of it won't. Basic operations will mostly apply, but the menus are rearranged considerably. And, obviously, there's nothing about AVC-Intra in it.

It'll apply to the 150 to some extent, but I wouldn't recommend it for 150 users. (Though DVX100 users have said they've found it quite helpful.)
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Souka; I kind of thought that since manufactures usually have similar layouts that even if it wasn't exact, it might give me a good idea of both where some of the options are, and how to use them :)

I might actually pick this up a bit later. I'm still interested in learning how to use the 300 but I'm just not focused on it right now anymore. (although it could still help me learn my way around the 150 a bit)
 
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