FS7: Custom matrix settings for Rec 709 delivery??

cyvideo

cyvideo

Veteran
Hi those earning a living with the FS7.

Just wondered if any of you have developed any decent Scene Files in your Custom Rec 709 Matrix paint settings. Specifically to get the best out of the FS7 regarding dynamic range, colorimetry, skin tones, highlight handling and highlight roll off. A Custom Matrix for quick turn around post with minimal grading. Something that you can just hand off to others that looks good with a minimum of work required. Something that can be used live to air if required.

Over the last couple of years I've come up with a few Scene Files for the trusty old FS7. I have one that has become quite popular and is being asked for by a number of producers, tv networks and post houses. If any of you have Custom Scene Files that are finding popularity does anyone think there is any benefit of us swapping are sharing Scene Files amongst the group? A sample of the popular one I am using a fair bit can be seen here if anyone wishes to comment or suggest improvements I'm happy to hear them.

https://youtu.be/5OyCmCVwtsc

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney
 
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the YT video isn't available..

I am looking for that settings since I own the FS7. I tested many but I did not find anything which is close to CineEI.
I started with Gamma STD , Pre-Select Matrix F55 709 like, User Matrix on level dialled down at least -20
Auto knee of, knee point 90% slope 0
I am just playing with the multi matrix to get magenta out of skin tones. What are your findings, Chris?
 
Yes I had the same problem with the YouTube link. My bad. Should be fixed now. Try https://youtu.be/5OyCmCVwtsc

Yes Magenta was one of the color biases that I really didn't like with the FS7. It's also a problem with some other Sony cameras. I've abandoned Auto Knee as it tends to 'pump.' Sony reckoned this was fixed in firmware v4.0. It was improved but not fixed. What I was finding is that if you were zoomed in the auto knee would control the highlights but as you zoomed out and the highlights got smaller in the scene the knee would start to adjust compression and often lose detail in the highlights, like bright whites in hard sunlight. I really hate blown whites and highlights and this was one of the major reasons I spent time trying to get as much range out of the camera as possible. The last cameras I recall that had this pumping knee behavior in a bad way were the EX 1/3 models where I found you had to use a manual knee to get the best out of them.

The paint setup that I have used in these YouTube scenes were based off some hours on a DSC Chroma Du Monde chart with the scopes plus a few Multi Matrix tweaks I played around with that I found helped. I've also developed a "Custom S-LOG 2" setting that we use quite often as it gives you basically the same dynamic range of Cine EI S-LOG2 but with the added flexibility of Custom mode enabling you to white balance, change gain/ISO upwards, 2000ISO being the S-LOG base of course. It also gives you access to a number of other parameters that are only available in the Custom setting. This "S-LOG2 Custom Mode" requires only minor grading in lift, gamma and gain to personal taste. I'm finding a few guys I passed this on to are now using it as their standard setup. Editors including myself find it very quick and easy to do these minor grades changes with this setup.

See if you can now access the YouTube URL. If it is still not working let me know and I will investigate further. Look forward to any comments.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney
 
I guess it would be nice to shoot some sample footage with all the different scene files and put them all on one screen at the same time, so you could really compare and contrast them.

I agree that while the scene files can come close to CINE EI, they never quite seem to have the nuance of CINE EI. But I understand completely about being able to simply hand the files
over and the image looks good as is.

Here are some scene files I've seen so far, but haven't test them all out yet. And it probably depends on what look you're going for too.


https://www.abelcine.com/articles/b...nloads/new-sony-fs7-scene-files-from-abelcine

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2015/02/scene-files-picture-profiles-for-the-pxw-fs7/

http://www.vortexmedia.store/DJ-LC709typeA_Scene_File.html
 
lucky you on the other side of the earth. I haven't seen the sun for the last 3 days. Foggy, misty, dizzling rain - and I am not even in England. Bad times for camera tests. At the first sight the footage seems a bit cold / blueish. Probably easily fixable in post but that's what we want to avoid. Do you have a sample of slog2 CineEI look alike?

btw my beginner's mistake: I loaded scene file from other people but did not reset the camera afterwards. I did not realize that there were some matrix settings whcih were still applied. Save your own settings and do a reset after testing other scene files..
 
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I created the following matrix back in the day with my EX-1 using a chroma du monde chart and a vectorscope and have been very happy with it as a basic color setting for the EX-1 , F3 and now the FS7 though for some reason on the FS7 I had to add a setting of -7 on the phase. The diamond pattern on the vectorscope with the EX-1 and F3 looked just about right but while it looked different on the FS7 the colors matched very well between all 3 cameras in practice. I don't quite understand that but it seems to work well and a few other techs in the SF Bay Area see to like it and think it gives fairly accurate color and good flesh tones. It is only a color matrix though and I change the Gammas, saturation , knee, black levels etc for the shot. Never use auto knee.

Begin with the PreSet Matrix "ON" and choose Std or Hi Sat depending on taste and the gamma used.
User Matirx is also "ON"
Set Level to taste. ( For Std 5 Gamma I often use PreSet Standard with Level +2)
Phase is -7

R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21

If you like this setup I only ask that you call it "Lenny Matrix" and I am interested in whether other people like it or hate it .
 
Good one Lenny. I will bang those in when I get a chance and have a look. Will post back. I don't have the camera nearby at the moment so next time I post I'll throw up the paint settings i used for the Custom Rec 709 I used for the uploaded clip.

Chris Young
 
Ha - I got dozens I've made in LUTCALC for all sorts of situations and hardly ever get a chance to use any of them so I don't really know if they're any good.
 
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LennyLevy said:
I created the following matrix back in the day with my EX-1 using a chroma du monde chart and a vectorscope and have been very happy with it as a basic color setting for the EX-1 , F3 and now the FS7 though for some reason on the FS7 I had to add a setting of -7 on the phase. The diamond pattern on the vectorscope with the EX-1 and F3 looked just about right but while it looked different on the FS7 the colors matched very well between all 3 cameras in practice. I don't quite understand that but it seems to work well and a few other techs in the SF Bay Area see to like it and think it gives fairly accurate color and good flesh tones. It is only a color matrix though and I change the Gammas, saturation , knee, black levels etc for the shot. Never use auto knee.

Begin with the PreSet Matrix "ON" and choose Std or Hi Sat depending on taste and the gamma used.
User Matirx is also "ON"
Set Level to taste. ( For Std 5 Gamma I often use PreSet Standard with Level +2)
Phase is -7

R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21

If you like this setup I only ask that you call it "Lenny Matrix" and I am interested in whether other people like it or hate it .
Click to expand...

Didn't you have similar HG7 settings some time ago? Was there a difference beside the gamma and level?
 
Clermond said:
Do you have a sample of slog2 CineEI look alike?
Click to expand...

Before I took off today for my shoot I grabbed a few shots out the back of the house in the Custom S-LOG2 Matrix Mode. I think you will either hate it or like it. This clip is straight out of the camera. It was shot preset 5600K. it was shot in 2K Center Crop S16 Mode with an MTF S16 B4 adapter. Why? Because I was on my way to a job that was an ENG style shoot requiring a B4 servo zoom. The only thing done to the footage on the timeline was the application of an S curve for a bit of lift, gamma, gain and contrast adjustment. All of about 20 seconds worth of adjustment then rendered out. Not very inspiring footage out the back I agree but it will give you an idea of the dynamic range from fully illuminated sunny hot spots through to the darker shady spots. All in all I'm quite happy with this setup as it is very quick to adjust for fast turn around.

https://youtu.be/VOJDKGZArec

When I get the chance I will post up the paint settings

Chris Young
 
thanks for sharing, Chris. I still haven't seen any spot of sun since I wrote my first feedback two days ago..
 
No problems Clermond.

I know what you mean. I was shooting in Berlin last October during the Festival of Lights and at times it was hard to see the top of the tower from our hotel in Alexanderplatz but hey I loved it. Berlin is just such a buzz of a city. This last Feb we were shooting in the UK and it was freezing but there again it can be a pleasant change to the month in month out sun that we get here quite often. Sometimes we pray for rain as we watch the gardens die :)
 
this is getting very off topic.. Berlin is very special imho. In almost every European county the economic performance of the capital is much higher than the average of the country. Without the capital the gross performance would shrink about 15% -20% - except Berlin and Rome. Berlin lowers national economic performance. If I am on the street where I live at 8:30h I see people at work or at least on the way to work. In Berlin if I see people at 8:30h on the street I have the impression most of them are drunk getting home from a party. It's the capital of subsidised laziness. :2vrolijk_08: Berlin is so wide spread, it takes at least 45min to get from A to B no matter where you want to go. There is a lot of art and culture but no well paid jobs in media or advertising. Nevertheless Berlin in great - for a 5 days visit.
 
I played a little with you settings, Lenny. Many thanks again for sharing. Unfortunately I could not test it outside but I will do that as soon as it stops raining. Here's my LennyF55 custom profile:

Matrix F55 REC709 like
level -25
phase -5

untouched matrix settings
R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21


Multi Matrix on
R+ Hue -15, sat +3
R Hue -10, sat +2

edit:
auto knee off
Point 90%
slope and all other settings 0
White Clip setting on, 108%

even with F55 REC 709 like it seems a bit flat. I give level -20 a try next time
R+ Hue -15 is probably a tad too much green.

If someone will test it: any feedback is welcome.
I am very curious how these settings behave under natural light and strong sunlight.
With the LED in my booth I am quite satisfied so far.
 
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wow you've made so many changes I don't even see why you'd bother to start with my matrix settings. I set it up based on the standard preset matrix so even shifting to F55 REC709 might be a big difference - let alone adding the multi matrix. I only use the multi matrix when there is a specific color in the shot I want to change. Never tried it as part of a general setting but what the hell give it a try. What were you trying to do with the multi matrix?
 
I played with F55 REC 709 before so I just continued with that. When you turn Area Detection you can see exactly which colours are affected in the Multi Matrix settings. R+ affects top left flesh tone colors on the X-Rite chart, R affects the middle pure red. Hue minus setting shifts these colours towards green, sat is self explaining. It's the first time i am playing with these setting and it's for sure not the holy grail I discovered. I am open for any advice or instructions.
 
I don't know what you're looking for with the holy grail exactly. I wanted a something that seemed to give me generally accurate colors in as many situations as I could but I still adjust color temp. sat (level), phase , gamma, and black level for the shot. The way I set up the matrix was with a DSC chart that I borrowed from a friend ( now I have a "one shot" that I got from B&H) and a vectorscope. I'm an amateur with this stuff though so a real tech might think what I did was bonkers.

The matrix settings are very complex to play with as each setting affects the others and its not in the least bit intuitive. I found a couple of tutorials on the web (one I think was from Alistair Chapman) and got a about a dozen color photos of various skin tones and different kinds of landscapes from old magazines ( Nat Geos are good). That was a tip from an old friend who was a wiz with the matrixes. He would actually use them to color balance shots which scared the hell out of me when I used him as a tech. A good tech really understands those things but my guess is its becoming a lost art these days with Slog becoming so common. You'll notice when you compare different recommended matrixes that they are all completely different . Its a little confusing. That's because each setting affects the others so radically that you can't just tweak a setting to add more warmth say without maybe affecting the green or blue somewhere else. I imagine that once you pick a starting point you keep adjusting from there and so they look completely different in the end. Maybe that's also because I don't really understand them that well though.

Anyway I played with the settings for a couple of days trying first to get a diamond shape on the vectorscope with the 6 primary and secondaries aimed at their target boxes. But then I kept futsing with it till it would make all my magazine covers look pretty true with good flesh tones. Did this under tungsten and starting with the Preset Standard matrix. Once I found something that looked good I left those numbers alone and it seems to be pretty good to me, though I still adjust the other color and contrast parameters for each shot when I can. I haven't really compared it often to other matrixes but when I have I liked it and some techs I worked with did also. My friend likes the Preset F55 709like and I haven't compared it to mine.

Another friend has an FS7 and complained about the color to me and I gave him my settings and he wrote back that it was much improved. That's really all I can say. I'm not really sure its any better than the other presets for sure though.
I set this up originally on an EX-1 and it matched perfectly with a F3. On the FS7 it was weird as I had to turn the phase over to -7 and the vectorscope no longer has the nice diamond shape. However the colors match my EX-1 very well so I still use it.
That's about all I can tell you. The idea of using those number with a different starting matrix ( the F55 709like) just sounds counterintuitive to me since I set it up carefully based on standard. But whatever works.

I have seen people suggest different matrixes for indoor and outdoor and under different lighting sources etc but that sounds awfully complicated and kind of counterintuitive to me. You have other controls to correct for that stuff and I just want my camera to have basically good colorimetry. I strongly suggest the magazine pics as a way to set something that works in lots of situations . Also of course a good monitor is essential.

That's a lot of words but I hope it clarifies the matrix thing a bit.
 
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