FS7: Custom LUT usefulness

I always wonder if people who say they can expose just by how the picture feels in the viewfinder also ignore the bubble on their tripod head, the audio meters (I don't know what happend, it sounded great in my headphones??!!), the speedometer in their car, and the artificial horizon on their airplane. Instruments? They don't need no stinking instruments. Just one eyeball is all those folks need, and it's built right into their face for convenience. Apparently, ambient light levels, fogging, changing lighting conditions, the poor picture quality of a tiny 1" viewfinder, don't faze them a bit. It must be nice to be so good at guessing the exposure that someone can throw away all the light meters, waveform monitors, scopes, zebras, and everything else that other professionals have had to rely on for decades. I am impressed with that level of skill. But I also feel a little sorry for the folks in post.

But its really not that hard . anyone who has shot a decent amount of 709.. can perfectly judge their exposure off a MLUT.. and anyway what is perfect exposure.. you can be out 1 stop or or so on a doc.. the content is alot more important.. I would be sacked for missing a shot worrying about a 1/2 stop exposure .. Ive shot several large series in many different countries Slog3.cine .. MLUT 709.. about 90% exposed purely by eye.. and no tears from post.. its a totally acceptable to work..
 
Donny 123 said:
the content is alot more important..
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Donny, I like you, I do, but I can't let you write this unchallenged. This is a camera forum, we discuss ways to get the best from our tools and improve our craft. Content is important, but so is improving and honing our skills, otherwise we might as well give up and let producers shoot everything on their iPhones.
 
producers could if they only had a charger...


Liam Hall said:
Donny, I like you, I do, but I can't let you write this unchallenged. This is a camera forum, we discuss ways to get the best from our tools and improve our craft. Content is important, but so is improving and honing our skills, otherwise we might as well give up and let producers shoot everything on their iPhones.
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Liam Hall said:
That's fine if it works for you. No problem. But, for me, and not wanting to sound like a tool, I need accurate exposure, not ballpark. Using WFM/zebras I can set exposure in under second and get it bang on most of the time. Mostly, I supply a custom LUT to the client, they simply need to drag and drop. Job done. Simple, repeatable, fast and idiot proof.
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Are you saying you and your client can't or won't do any color correction? If so, you eschew all the benefits of shooting in S-Log.

I contend that it's impossible to know the ideal exposure at shooting time. Exposure is at least partly an aesthetic consideration, and you won't know which exposure setting looks best until you see it on a monitor indoors in controlled lighting, ideally alongside other clips from the same project. Images almost always benefit from at least some exposure compensation, even if it's just 1/5 or 1/6 of a stop. White balance correction is even more important. Technically perfect exposure and white balance settings with a white or grey card, waveforms, or whatever method don't actually yield the best end result.
 
Liam Hall said:
I shot CineEI ISO1250. I used the LC709TypeA mLUT for normal speed shooting with the WFM showing the underlying Slog. I would also flick zebras on and off to confirm where 90% white reflectance was falling within the image. It might sound complicated, but really it is very simple, and quick, in practice. When I switched to HFR I would just keep the WFM looking the same as in the normal speed shot. Again, keep it simple!

The reason I don't like the 709 mLUT is because too much of the image will be either burnt out or crushed so giving a false impression. I know some people like using the hi/lo button, not me though!
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So at EI 1250 (which I also chose for scenes that had a lot of overexposed sunlight in background areas) where did you put the 90% white on your zebras or more precisely how did you have your zebras set. Obviously my typical 60% caucasian flesh tones would be worthless in Africa. and what did you do when there was no white? I assume by 90% white you mean something like a white shirt in your main area of exposure , not sunlit background areas.

Gotta say I agree that there is no perfect exposure and in my experience anyway just throwing a LUT on a shot is only a starting point. Frankly that's the reason for many of my clients I prefer to give them a WYSIWYG image that I've been careful with.

--------
On another note:
I love this forum and have learned an incredible amount over the years- BUT Re: criticism of Donny's method of exposure - Gosh I wish there was just more respect for people's methods of working here. It happens again and again and its simply unwarranted, lowers the professional tone and I'm sure it drives away the top notch pros. We're all professional and if not we should be treated as if we are anyway. You won't find that language on CML which is where the real pros are for a reason. "I wouldn't do it" is fine or "it sounds dangerous is plenty strong", but telling people they don't know what they're doing reflects more on the poster than who they're addressing.
 
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balazer said:
Are you saying you and your client can't or won't do any color correction?
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No, that's not what I'm saying. All my footage has a grade. I shoot a lot, for a lot of clients, all over the world. I try to deliver them footage that is fast and easy to post produce. That means supplying footage with a consistent noise floor and accurate exposure.

balazer said:
I contend that it's impossible to know the ideal exposure at shooting time.
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Really?? It's not that hard...

balazer said:
Exposure is at least partly an aesthetic consideration, and you won't know which exposure setting looks best until you see it on a monitor indoors in controlled lighting, ideally alongside other clips from the same project.
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Exposure is a choice, not a guess. One of the reasons for using exposure tools is to ensure that choice is an accurate one.

balazer said:
Images almost always benefit from at least some exposure compensation, even if it's just 1/5 or 1/6 of a stop. White balance correction is even more important. Technically perfect exposure and white balance settings with a white or grey card, waveforms, or whatever method don't actually yield the best end result.
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Exposure compensation is a feature of camera metering, don't confuse it with post grading.

Wild guess, but are you an editor who shoots?
 
LennyLevy said:
So at EI 1250 (which I also chose for scenes that had a lot of overexposed sunlight in background areas) where did you put the 90%
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68% on the underlying Slog3cine.

LennyLevy said:
white on your zebras or more precisely how did you have your zebras set. Obviously my typical 60% caucasian flesh tones would be worthless in Africa. and what did you do when there was no white? I assume by 90% white you mean something like a white shirt in your main area of exposure , not sunlit background areas.
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There is nearly always something in the scene. Plus, I have the WFM and of course the mLUT:-)
 
Liam Hall said:
Exposure compensation is a feature of camera metering, don't confuse it with post grading.

Wild guess, but are you an editor who shoots?
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Exposure compensation has another meaning. It's changing the gain in post, to correct for underexposure or overexposure. It compensates for shifts in exposure in the same way that changing the camera's ISO setting does.

Yes, I shoot, edit, and grade all myself. So I have the freedom to decide for myself how much of the work I want to do at shooting time and how much in post.
 
Liam,
So how much range do you have your zebra set for? Generally zebras are set for 10% range though I have done 5%. If its too narrow you won't see anything and you won't see things higher. If its too wide you end up having zebras all over the place which is distracting. Just curious about your method.

I may go to a lower EI in scenes where there is no extreme highlight issue but I'm concerned instead about shadow detail. Changing zebras would be a pain in the butt though not impossible. Of course changing EI is also problematic for Post so its a trade off depending on who's doing post.
 
I set it to everything above 68%. That way, I can't miss it. If it were set for mid tone, then yes, I'd use a smaller aperture, so I'd know that I'm nailing the right IRE values, but as it's set for highlights it's only ever going to be on the brightest part of the scene, so it's not dominating the viewfinder. Also, I only use the zebras to confirm what I'm seeing in the WFM, so it's usually only a quick flick on and off. Like Donny, I hate seeing zebras in my EVF.
 
LennyLevy said:
I may go to a lower EI in scenes where there is no extreme highlight issue but I'm concerned instead about shadow detail. Changing zebras would be a pain in the butt though not impossible. Of course changing EI is also problematic for Post so its a trade off depending on who's doing post.
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Yeah, I try to maintain the same EI throughout a job if I'm handing over footage.
 
LennyLevy said:
Zebras will act on the MLUT brightness though won't it? Can you set that to be reading underlying Slog levels?
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Yeah, they only act on what is fed into the LCD, so you can either have the set for whatever mLUT you are using or, like me and you shoot a lot of HFR, have them set for Slog3.
 
Liam Hall said:
Donny, I like you, I do, but I can't let you write this unchallenged. This is a camera forum, we discuss ways to get the best from our tools and improve our craft. Content is important, but so is improving and honing our skills, otherwise we might as well give up and let producers shoot everything on their iPhones.
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Fair point Sir..and I like you too.. did someone mention full auto !!!!!
 
icarusfilm said:
Publimix is probably sleeping in holland feeling all superior because the Dutch have funktioning dams and ****, we can totally jump him!
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Yes I was there but 2 weeks ago.. lovely part of the planet.. as well as the above they have nice cheese and tulips.. its unfortunate that the strong push from the BSC to outlaw full auto ,has culminated in the Brexit debacle .. not to put all the blame on Publimix shoulders.. but some responsibility must be accepted ..
 
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