FS7: Custom LUT usefulness

No, you're missing out on half the fun. Anyone who used to have a darkroom knows what I mean. It's only a pain if you didn't shoot it right in the first place, otherwise it is cool to see the negative be developed and printed. So many options in post with S-LOG and RAW.

The negative is the score, and the print the performance.
Ansel Adams
 
I agree in the usefulness of MLUTs for onset monitoring, mainly so that others working from other departments (not to mention the client if present) can see something representing a "normal" image and/or to look "pretty" -- but same as Doug I can't really agree that MLUT is "useful" for setting exposure. I'm not saying you can't use it and set your exposure, or that it's impossible to do so, but I wouldn't call it useful. I would actually call it another level of confusion.

I bet before Ben mentioned the actual mapped white value for LC709A most people thought it was probably 85-90% like any normal REC709 curve. Nope it's 71%. So if you had set white to 90% while monitoring with LC709A you'd be 2 stops overexposed on your underlying slog footage.

Think of this; how 100% sure are you that white is actually 71% in LC709A.. you tested it yourself with absolute confidence and the right equipment or read it in forum right? But now you get on a set, you set white for 71% and what do you notice? Anything that's suppose to be a nice white in the frame is now a nice light shade of grey. The image is quite dull actually, no brightness. Your tendency, the tendency, (and I have done it too by mistake) will be to make the image look right with the LUT enabled which means putting white at 90% in your monitor. If this puts slog 2 stops over exposed what are your clipping levels doing now?

Now if you know for sure that the same LUT is going to be applied in post later on then I think it's okay to gauge your exposure by WYSIWYG because how you see it is exactly how its going to look later on. I do this too for some fast turn around work. But if I'm just using an MLUT for onset monitoring and I know it's slog footage being handed over you can bet that I'm always looking at my slog levels on a waveform monitor to see what's really being recorded, what might be clipping, or if I even have more room to expose to the right a little without clipping.

Because of what I consider to be low WYSIWYG values of the LC709A LUT specifically I have since switched to using MLUT 709(800%) for monitoring because I feel it gives a well balanced look for the actual exposure I'm working with.

And thanks to Doug who had first pointed out this discrepancy of 2 stops between slog and LC709A depending on how you went about exposing for them. I'm quite sure Doug remembers that thread. :)

Based on those old discussions I put together this table showing mapped values that I have found for various curves. Who knows if they are right :)

LUT-exposure-levels.png
 
+1

Doug Jensen said:
No, you're missing out on half the fun. Anyone who used to have a darkroom knows what I mean. It's only a pain if you didn't shoot it right in the first place, otherwise it is cool to see the negative be developed and printed. So many options in post with S-LOG and RAW.

The negative is the score, and the print the performance.
Ansel Adams
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starcentral said:
And thanks to Doug who had first pointed out this discrepancy of 2 stops between slog and LC709A depending on how you went about exposing for them. I'm quite sure Doug remembers that thread. :)]
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Yeah, I remember it well and this issue is something I talk about extensively in my training videos and books. I have a chart on page 24 of my book that shows how to use zebras to expose using the most popular onboard MLUTs so that S-LOG exposure still hits the intended target. And the numbers don't look anything like your chart. :-(
Perhaps the reason my numbers are different is because I'm not exposing at Sony' recommended levels anymore. But I stand by my numbers because I used my Leader LV5330 WFM to check everything very precisely to see how levels changes when MLUTs are turned on/off.

But I've found the best way to deal with the visual discrepancy that MLUTs may cause is simply to set the EI to 800, and then the TypeA MLUT will look good enough on the client monitor when the underlying S-LOG is correctly exposed. And I define "correct" exposure for S-LOG as being around 70-75% for bright whites, rather than the ridiculously low 59% and 61% Sony advocates. Nobody I know with serious S-LOG and RAW experience exposes at those levels anymore. And curiously enough, EI 800 is actually the factory default setting for the FS7 instead of the camera's native ISO of 2000. It took me a while to appreciate why Sony cleverly slipped in 800 as the factory default setting for EI instead of 2000.
 
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icarusfilm said:
I offer clients that don't want to deal with grading a quick grade in Resolve as part of an extended Data management scheme. For really fast turnaround (news etc.) I usually go into custom mode with HG8/7 and lower the blacks to -5 to -8.
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I do this as well... and don't get me wrong I agree with Doug - I'm very happy that Sony gave us this option. But when I compare my custom footage to that of my CineEI custom Mlut footage.... I almost always prefer the CineEI custom mLut look.
Of course - best yet is grading your own footage and not having to shoot WYSIWYG.
 
For me, the safest and most reliable way to get a good exposure with slog is by using zebras set at 70-75% against 90% white, then once set that way, I turn on the MLUT. This way I don't have to make any compensation for the MLUT and can have a less flat image to monitor. But, of course, if the lighting changes, you have to turn the MLUT off and adjust it again, so, if in a more uncontrolled situation, I might forego the MLUT all together. I have Mr. Jensen's book and it is a great reference. In the book, it states the default exposure of 800 is possibly a "firmware mistake," but it sounds like it was Sony's way of setting the MLUT about a stop and a half under, so you would compensate and bring up the exposure a stop and a half, right about where it should be. This is if you were relying on the MLUT alone for setting your exposure.
 
Doug Jensen said:
No, you're missing out on half the fun. Anyone who used to have a darkroom knows what I mean. It's only a pain if you didn't shoot it right in the first place, otherwise it is cool to see the negative be developed and printed. So many options in post with S-LOG and RAW.

The negative is the score, and the print the performance.
Ansel Adams
Click to expand...

Well yet again I think its different for the people who are editing/grading for their own projects..I can see this being fun.. as opposed to the jobbing freelancers like myself and JP.. I know alot of DP,s who edit and I hear nothing but nightmare stories of constant un paid edit revisions ..yes even when they have stipulated how many their rate covers.. and basically a huge PITA for very little finical reward.. everyone of them has told me I'm lucky I dont edit.. really everyone !!.. personally i think its a separate job with different skills.. same way I dont want to do my own audio.. or the car mechanic to do my dentistry .. :)
 
karma17 said:
I have Mr. Jensen's book and it is a great reference. In the book, it states the default exposure of 800 is possibly a "firmware mistake," but it sounds like it was Sony's way of setting the MLUT about a stop and a half under, so you would compensate and bring up the exposure a stop and a half, right about where it should be. This is if you were relying on the MLUT alone for setting your exposure.
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Which BTW is what Mr. Chapman has been advocating for a while. I know, I know :) Just saying...

I've always been using this technique (long before Sony made 800 the default rating in one of their more recent firmware updates), and while always using MLUT I've always had my S-Log3 properly exposed. I wish it was that easy wiith V-Log L on my GH5!

Piotr
 
Donny 123 said:
Well yet again I think its different for the people who are editing/grading for their own projects..I can see this being fun.. as opposed to the jobbing freelancers like myself and JP.
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I totally understand why someone wouldn't want to get into doing work in post for a client. I won't do that either unless it is a turn-key project for a client I like that I'm writing, directing, producing, shooting, etc. and I'm in total control.

But in today's world, anyone who is a good shooter, who owns their own gear, and who actually enjoys shooting, should be dabbling in stock footage. And that absolutely requires having the skills to edit and grade your own footage in post. With stock footage can do whatever you want and nobody is going to be looking over your shoulder or second-guessing your decisions. It's all the fun and none of the pain. Stock footage also gives you an excuse to shoot things that you wou would never get hired to shoot, try new things, experiment with other settings, and most of all, have fun. At least that's how it is for me. Going out and shooting stuff that doesn't involve a client is one of the most enjoyable things I do. Some people want to go fishing or golfing, some people want to sit on the couch and watch other people play silly sports, but I like to get out and shoot for relaxation and fun.

The very nice steady income I'm making now from stock footage sales, which continues to grow as I add more footage, is just the icing on the cake. I look at my stock footage library as an nice little apple orchard that will be bearing fruit for years and years to come. Or maybe a herd of dairy cows that give me a little milk to sell every day. But if someone has no skills in post, then they can't really take advantage of this lucrative opportunity for extra income.

As Publimix says, it is fun to see the footage come alive in post and there are a hundred different directions you can go with any clip. It's just up to what looks good to you and what might sellable to some unknown customer. Who cares what anyone else thinks. All the fun and none of the pain.

Some footage I shot last weekend with my FS7 and couple of small Sony lenses while I was on vacation . . . (it will eventually pay for the whole trip)

 
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Yeah I can see that would be fun and bring in some income.. Ive thought of doing the same.. but when ever Ive looked into it, there always seems to be people saying these days its impossible to make any money.. i.e. all the free stuff or very low cost stuff available these days.. depends on the content too I guess.. something really rare will always sell.. but yes I can totally see the joy of doing it and grading your own stuff.. I think there was a thread about it on this forum no so long ago too..
 
Doug Jensen said:
But in today's world, anyone who is a good shooter, who owns their own gear, and who actually enjoys shooting, should be dabbling in stock footage. And that absolutely requires having the skills to edit and grade your own footage in post. With stock footage can do whatever you want and nobody is going to be looking over your shoulder or second-guessing your decisions. It's all the fun and none of the pain. Stock footage also gives you an excuse to shoot things that you wou would never get hired to shoot, try new things, experiment with other settings, and most of all, have fun. At least that's how it is for me. Going out and shooting stuff that doesn't involve a client is one of the most enjoyable things I do. Some people want to go fishing or golfing, some people want to sit on the couch and watch other people play silly sports, but I like to get out and shoot for relaxation and fun.

The very nice steady income I'm making now from stock footage sales, which continues to grow as I add more footage, is just the icing on the cake. I look at my stock footage library as an nice little apple orchard that will be bearing fruit for years and years to come. Or maybe a herd of dairy cows that give me a little milk to sell every day. But if someone has no skills in post, then they can't really take advantage of this lucrative opportunity for extra income.
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Dear Doug - thanks so much for helping me realize that great idea! Definitely - considering my age and health problems, as well as the fact that my main profession is something entirely different - I'm going to try and make some income on stock footage, in the way and with all the advantages you've described. I'm going to start right now, and intensify the activity once I get retired from my main job.

There is one difficulty in this idea though: being THE Doug Jensen, it probably is easier for you to actually sell your stock footage than it would be for me :( Any advise on how to make a financial success with this activity by an unknown person like myself, Doug? Of course - apart from producing actually good (or great) footage, that is. TIA for any suggestions!

Piotr
 
Piotr,

I appreciate the thought, but my footage is no better than a lot of people's footage, and nobody, I mean nobody, who buys my footage through one of the online stock agencies knows who I am or would care. When it comes to stock, nobody cares who shot it and everyone is on equal footing.
 
Regarding LUT and setting exposure, I'm not sure how many FS5 owners might be reading this thread but the oddest thing about the FS5 is that even though it doesn't offer off MLUTs, it actually does!

The gamma assist function is not the same as the gamma assist function on the FS7 or F5/F55. On the FS5 it actually allows you to enable one of the standard Sony MLUTS; 709(800%). But here's the odd part or at least what I wanted to point out: The zebra stripes remain working on the underlying log image even with the gamma assist/MLUT turned on! This is opposite of the FS7/F5/F55 where the exposure tools always work on top of the MLUT if enabled.

I admit this threw me for a loop at first. I enabled look 709(800%) and white was still striping at 60% for white. :undecided
 
There is a setting in the FS7 menu which allows to toggle this behavior for the WFM/histogram, but not for the zebras - these will always relate to what is actually displayed on the camera's monitor.

Piotr
 
I have a brother that owns an FS7 and shoots in China, does Doug Jensens Master series cover a lot on the MLUTs on how to access and use it?
 
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