Curb Your Enthusiasm
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Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I'm watching it but my wife bailed out a couple of seasons ago. I think this season looks fantastic, but the storylines are pretty lame. Clearly they have just run out of ideas to keep it fresh.
homestar_kevin
Well-known member
I'm still watching/loving it. I enjoyed some of season 10 a lot, Jon Hamm acting like Larry was one of the funniest bits in the series for me.
Batutta
Major Contributor
It's definitely not a show for everybody. If you don't like cringe comedy then I definitely wouldn't recommend it, and because of its episodic nature some episodes are much better than others. There are some scenes that made me laugh harder then anything over the years. Interesting how the show has gotten more cinematic in style over the years and what that has done to the comedy. The first few seasons were shot on digibeta cameras in a more documentary fashion and some people thought it was funnier that way.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
My wife has seen more episodes than I have snd is bringing me up to speed on season 11 now.
It looks great. You have to wonder, though, if increasing the production value takes a toll on the performances, at least for the less disciplined actors like Larry himself. I mean, it's just a lot more waiting around and less spontaneous, I imagine, than when it looked like a crappy reality TV show.
Of couRse, much of the funny comes from the writing and is somewhat insulated from the speed of shooting. I laughed during season 10 but not as much as I'm laughing now.
My favorite episode of all tkme is when he give Richard Lewis his kidney. I think that was the peak of the show, or the plateau.
But the only thing I find diminished now is the ingenius complexity of intertwining plots and coincidences and repetitions of language and hang-ups, etc. The formula is still there, it just doesn't seem as clever and complex on an episode-by-episode basis as it used to.
That being said, I think some of the concepts he's playing with are downright genius. A lot of the dialogue is hilarious. The guest stars are absolutely knocking it out of the park. There are usually multiple scenes per episode that leave me in tears.
And I love the way he handles getting old and being rich. He brings a kind of honest introspection to his life that I think is the source of his insight and humor
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Jon Hamm is so funny. He was awesome in the living funeral episode of season 11
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I don't know if it was funnier because of the low production value, per se. Although I could believe that it's related because making things look pretty takes time and energy away from making things funny. Sometimes I think that it's a mistake to try to increase production value, especially if the audience wasn't watching for the production value in the first place.
you can't be as liberated or spontaneous with the camera and the action this way. And there were so many hilarious, unflattering shots of Larry before.
Sometimes I felt like the image quality and lighting design was itself cringeworthy in the past. I like the new look but I wonder if it was the wisest choice. but I dunno if they could have landed all these high-profile guest stars if they were going to make them look mediocre
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I know the guy who shoots the show -- sold him his VariCam LTs. He's really working the same way as before, just with a better camera system.
So far I think this season is okay. Not stunningly funny but there are definitely some great moments. I thought season 10 was a little stronger, if only because the concept of a Spite Store was so brilliantly Larry David in its pettiness.
So far I think this season is okay. Not stunningly funny but there are definitely some great moments. I thought season 10 was a little stronger, if only because the concept of a Spite Store was so brilliantly Larry David in its pettiness.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
As usual Mitch and I have something of the same brain, I was about to post that much of the "improvement" to the look comes from a modern large sensor camera. I had a similar experience when I worked on the reboot of Crank Yankers, the original series was shot on 2/3" ped cameras, so it naturally looked a lot better when we brought Varicam LT's in.
Batutta
Major Contributor
You can make things too slick sometimes. Tim Burton's films lost their charm when he got too skilled as a filmmaker and his production values increased. The homemade quality was part of his aesthetic. The cheap video quality of early Curb I think helped make the heavily improvised scenes feel more real, which increased the cringe factor. A terrible analogy maybe, but it's kind of like how porn shot on film at 24p is somehow less realistic than it shot at 60i in flat lighting.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I agree. My friend Bill Sheehy shot several season of Curb on F800's and I think the less-cinematic, more documentary feel of the show back then helped create a more spontaneous real-life feeling. Yes, the show looks great today, but overall it has lost its charm because it feels over-produced now. I also think they tend to make most of the supporting cast over-react too Larry to quickly. They used to brush it off and then progressively get more offended but now they just just jump right to ultra-offened mode right off the top. In real life, and in prior seasons, people tended to laugh things off more and not be so quick to be offended by whatever Larry is doing to piss them off. BTW, I htink Larry is completely in the right at least 90% of the time. It is the rest of the characters who are actually the a-holes.
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If the production values and methods have as much impact on the result, don’t you think they’d have addressed it by now? I’m sure Larry David would be capable of saying “hey, when you do these lengthy setups, it destroys the rhythm of my delivery and the spontaneity of performances from my costars. I mean, is it too much to ask, for the creators to actually address the final product and see what’s responsible for the effects?
So I’m not sure how convincing the case for “production values” is here.
You have to address the overall effect. If a show is no good, production values are not going to rescue it one way or another.
Personally, it took me a while to get into Curb. Mostly because I was very patient. From my perspective, it’s a low-return on investment show. There are gems - lines, situations etc. - but you have to go through a lot of dross to get to them (for me). A lot of the time I find the “comedy”, quite forced - I can see the design a mile away, and if it’s not working, then I just drum my fingers waiting for the whole unfunny bit to play out before the next one, hoping the next one will be a success. I watched probably a couple of full seasons early on, and it was hit or miss, mostly miss, but enough hits to keep me going. But this newest season… tried it, but it just seemed tired and unfunny.
Don’t get me wrong. I give Larry David all the credit in the world for doing something new creatively. Seinfeld was a breakthrough and so is Curb. That’s very, very rare. But while the idea and design are very laudable, it doesn’t always fly - like a very exotic and innovative airplane, that unfortunately often doesn’t take off or complete a flight. So hats off to Larry David. But my time on this earth is very limited, so I’m gonna have to move onto higher return ratio content… Curb doesn’t quite reach my ROI requirements these days. YMMV.
So I’m not sure how convincing the case for “production values” is here.
You have to address the overall effect. If a show is no good, production values are not going to rescue it one way or another.
Personally, it took me a while to get into Curb. Mostly because I was very patient. From my perspective, it’s a low-return on investment show. There are gems - lines, situations etc. - but you have to go through a lot of dross to get to them (for me). A lot of the time I find the “comedy”, quite forced - I can see the design a mile away, and if it’s not working, then I just drum my fingers waiting for the whole unfunny bit to play out before the next one, hoping the next one will be a success. I watched probably a couple of full seasons early on, and it was hit or miss, mostly miss, but enough hits to keep me going. But this newest season… tried it, but it just seemed tired and unfunny.
Don’t get me wrong. I give Larry David all the credit in the world for doing something new creatively. Seinfeld was a breakthrough and so is Curb. That’s very, very rare. But while the idea and design are very laudable, it doesn’t always fly - like a very exotic and innovative airplane, that unfortunately often doesn’t take off or complete a flight. So hats off to Larry David. But my time on this earth is very limited, so I’m gonna have to move onto higher return ratio content… Curb doesn’t quite reach my ROI requirements these days. YMMV.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea what the producers think about the relationship between production values and the effectiveness of the comedy they are trying to convey. I can only speak for myself and I believe the two things are intertwined. With this kind of genre, appearing to be over scripted, over lighted, too polished, and over rehearsed does not lend itself to the spontaneous "documentary" feel that the first seasons had. And that makes it less funny because it seems more fake. Whether the producers care to address my impression of the show is not my concern. I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
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CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
I talked to one of my colleagues who has been on Curb for a while. The original show (pre-reboot) was shot on 2/3 cameras as Doug noted, hardlined to paint boxes. The first year of the reboot (season 9a) they went to FS7's with kit and Canon still lenses, but it didn't work out because of the delayed focus-by-wire issues as well as mushy snap zooms, with operators pulling their own focus as they had in the 2/3" era. Apparently there was a lot of pushback from HBO about the results from that season, so they switched over to Varicams with Cabrios and a more traditional camera dept. with focus pullers (who also pulled iris as needed). As far as the feel being different other than the camera improvements, the rest of it stylistically is a directorial choice. Jeff Schaefer directs most of the episodes and is also the showrunner, thus the look and the feel of the show is mandated by the same mind that is responsible for its content.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The addition of focus pullers (all wireless off monitors) was necessitated by the move to S35 sensor cameras. The lighting is all fairly flat to accommodate the spontaneous nature of the production. While there is no more hard line to a DIT painting they actually could do that on the VariCam LT if they wanted to -- it's just that everyone rightly hated it for this type of shooting. There isn't a lot of post needed for the show as the DP's LUT generally needs only minor tweaks.
Any changes in the "feel" or content of the show really comes from the creators not the technical. I'm sure Patrick would enjoy hearing that everyone considers the show to be better looking now, but it would really get his ire up to hear people using that to blame for any perceived drop in humor quality of the show. He does his best to stay out of the way of the funny, which is part of the reason he did extensive tests before deciding on the VariCam LTs to shoot the show. He also uses them on Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee along with the EVA1 to great success, having previously used Canon cameras cobbled together with various accessories and rigging. He likes to get out of the way of the comedic talent and let them do their thing.
Any changes in the "feel" or content of the show really comes from the creators not the technical. I'm sure Patrick would enjoy hearing that everyone considers the show to be better looking now, but it would really get his ire up to hear people using that to blame for any perceived drop in humor quality of the show. He does his best to stay out of the way of the funny, which is part of the reason he did extensive tests before deciding on the VariCam LTs to shoot the show. He also uses them on Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee along with the EVA1 to great success, having previously used Canon cameras cobbled together with various accessories and rigging. He likes to get out of the way of the comedic talent and let them do their thing.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I'm not saying the DP is getting in the way of the comedic talent. I'm saying that a slicker, more polished look to the show is not conducive to the type of comedy that has made Curb funny. It was funniest when it felt more like a spontaneous documentary. That is my opinion. Surely, it is not a radical concept to say that the style of a production plays a role in the overall effectiveness of the show, whether it be a drama, comedy, documentary, music video, or whatever. Style matters. I've not a fan of The Office, but from what I have seen that show definitely had a documentary style to it, right? Suppose if was shot differently, like a standard TV drama, would it have been the same show? I'm sure the crew is giving Larry David and the producers exactly what they are asking for, but Iit doesn't work for me as well as what they did in the past.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I’d say, the almost cliché and best example of that idea is The Blair Witch Project. If it had been shot traditionally or in a more polished fashion, it would not have had the same impact on the audience.
I don’t think anybody here (certainly not me!) claims that production look and methods don’t have a profound impact on the overall effect of the content. Quite the opposite, we all know that even seemingly small changes, such as lens choices can have a big effect. However, we have to be careful to make sure that we attribute the effects correctly - so, for example an unfunny comedy is not going to be made funny because you used a different camera.
What’s at issue is whether the production methods IN THIS CASE - Curb Your Enthusiasm - have caused the perceived drop in quality for some. I personally have not attributed this drop (and I agree there’s been a drop) to production methods - the stuff just wasn’t funny/affecting, and I cannot imagine what could’ve been done technically to make it funny… that’s all in the content area.
That said, again, I agree that production values can have a huge impact - awhile ago I wrote an extensive review of Multiple Maniacs, wherein I observed how the low production values and the “in your face” disregard for technical standards was a crucial component of the success of that movie (and all of John Waters early output). I gave the analogy to punk music - a super polished production would be actually counterproductive to the effectiveness of punk, as punk arose in opposition to the slick production of rock music of the 70’s. So yes, the Blair Witch example is excellent and very on point. But is that’s what’s going on with Curb? Perhaps for some. But I am in the camp that it’s the material and no amount of production fiddling can improve what’s not on the page or in the performances. YMMV.
What’s at issue is whether the production methods IN THIS CASE - Curb Your Enthusiasm - have caused the perceived drop in quality for some. I personally have not attributed this drop (and I agree there’s been a drop) to production methods - the stuff just wasn’t funny/affecting, and I cannot imagine what could’ve been done technically to make it funny… that’s all in the content area.
That said, again, I agree that production values can have a huge impact - awhile ago I wrote an extensive review of Multiple Maniacs, wherein I observed how the low production values and the “in your face” disregard for technical standards was a crucial component of the success of that movie (and all of John Waters early output). I gave the analogy to punk music - a super polished production would be actually counterproductive to the effectiveness of punk, as punk arose in opposition to the slick production of rock music of the 70’s. So yes, the Blair Witch example is excellent and very on point. But is that’s what’s going on with Curb? Perhaps for some. But I am in the camp that it’s the material and no amount of production fiddling can improve what’s not on the page or in the performances. YMMV.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
I'd further suggest that the mockumentary style has run its course (deeply into the ground, IMO) so what was still reasonably fresh through the 2000's as a comedically enhancing concept (Modern Family, Parks and Rec) is bordering on hackneyed now. And of course we bring a different set of eyes to material as our own tastes shift and evolve. It's amazing how slow paced feature comedies from 20+ years ago feel when you watch them today.
^ This exactly. I agree with Charles. I for one still enjoy Curb and don't think the jump in quality has had any negative effect. Or that it's "over-produced". But do feel there is more wading to go through before a gem is presented. There's been a much more reliance on guest stars the last few seasons to keep things interesting.
It also doesn't surprise me to hear Doug's wife stopped watching. If Curb's demographic isn't mostly male, I would be surprised.