M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Truth.
GH2 crop factor 1.86x or 2x ?
- Thread starter Apefos Adapter
- Start date
Truth.
Despite those with a videocentric viewpoint, here is the reality:
Example: Panasonic 20mm lens
Samy's Camera (Los Angeles)
Adorama (NYC)
B&H PHOTO (NYC)
DPReview
PANASONIC PRESS RELEASE
So if it is good enough for Panasonic themselves in their own press release to use a FF 35 film camera as their frame of reference, it's probably good enough for the rest of us.
(Notice they say 40mm not 37.2mm, so it is a 2X crop factor.)
Further, unless anyone wants to go out and change the whole marketing apparatus by contacting all these other various point of sales and informing that they are wrong and "that they really should should be referring to an S35 frame of refererence, because that is what people in cinematography and videography are used to on DVXuser and besides it's really only being sold to people using the video aspect of the camera"....well, than be my guest.
Like it or not, welcome to the world of DSLR cameras.
Example: Panasonic 20mm lens
Samy's Camera (Los Angeles)
Adorama (NYC)
B&H PHOTO (NYC)
DPReview
PANASONIC PRESS RELEASE
So if it is good enough for Panasonic themselves in their own press release to use a FF 35 film camera as their frame of reference, it's probably good enough for the rest of us.
(Notice they say 40mm not 37.2mm, so it is a 2X crop factor.)
Further, unless anyone wants to go out and change the whole marketing apparatus by contacting all these other various point of sales and informing that they are wrong and "that they really should should be referring to an S35 frame of refererence, because that is what people in cinematography and videography are used to on DVXuser and besides it's really only being sold to people using the video aspect of the camera"....well, than be my guest.
Like it or not, welcome to the world of DSLR cameras.
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That was also the reason they used it... Nightmare? If it was such a nightmare why not stop down? They are in a controlled environment with lights. They can do it so why didn't they? Because they loved the look!
That's in the specs because they are talking in photography terms. Notice is says "on 35mm film camera". They are talking about 35mm full frame film, not Super 35. Compared to Full Frame for photography, yes it's 1.9x (for the GH2). The GH2 has a slightly different sized sensor than other m4/3 cameras (GH2 and AF100). However, when shooting video you should use the Super 35 crop factor since that's what's used as the standard for shooting movies.
Like it or not, you're on a filmmaking forum where we talk about cinematography much more that photography, and if you're shooting video/films/movies with it, you should start thinking in terms of cinematography and Super 35 frame sizes, since Super 35 is the standard for cinematography.
Seriously, I'm done repeating myself. You guys go ahead and keep thinking movies are shot with Full Frame sensors. You'll find yourself surprised and confused when you come across a professional camera that uses Super 35 sensors and find that no one in the professional cinematography world thinks at all in terms of Full Frame. When a DP asks for a 50mm lens he's not thinking of it in terms of "I want the field of view of a 35mm on a full frame sensor".
Just an observation. It has been my experience that whenever I try to fight the reality, I lose. You may take that however you wish.
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roei z
Veteran
Just some insight. Sometimes you lose when you think you've won.
In all reality, after working with the GH2 for a couple months I've found that the difference between that and an APS-C sized sensor are overblown. Yes there is a difference in FOV, but for the most part I can compose the same shots with the same lenses on both systems. The real difference is between a 5D and everything else.
One thing you are not considering is that the GH2 is largely a consumer camera that is geared towards the low end DSLR photo market. So of course there's going to be comparing things to a full frame photo perspective, because for the longest time 135 film was the standard for consumer photography. I can only remember a few years where APS was even an option for consumers, and few people had cameras that could actually take the film.
One thing you are not considering is that the GH2 is largely a consumer camera that is geared towards the low end DSLR photo market. So of course there's going to be comparing things to a full frame photo perspective, because for the longest time 135 film was the standard for consumer photography. I can only remember a few years where APS was even an option for consumers, and few people had cameras that could actually take the film.
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M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
On the contrary, I'd say he IS considering that. That's the point- this is a consumer stills camera that we are trying to apply the world of cinematography references to.
When discussing this particular camera (ie, crop sizes, etc), it would be prudent to use the same language as everyone else. When discussing cinematography in general, that's a different story.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Agree. It's nice sometimes knowing exactly what is going on with some older lens options but to be honest I have not put a ton of concern into it and just use what works for me. If we were forced with a fixed lens this may all be an issue but we have choices here and really at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what the crop factor is as long as we can all get the shots we want. With the current selection of m4/3 lenses and all the older lens options I find all of this to be a moot point and think all the bases are covered anyway. Well except for fast glass but again that is a problem unique for those who want to shoot video and refuse for whatever reason to use lights.
Its not about not wanting to use lights. I used to use full sized ENG style cameras and still have one for that type of shooting if I need it. The DSLR opened up the ability to shoot in natural lighting, however. I can get live event and other real-world footage that would have been impossibly grainy on my old cameras.
Fast primes brought me here. Otherwise I would have been happily using my big camera with its XLR inputs and superficial client confidence. Sadly, fast primes tend to be pretty long in focal points. You find the most common fast option being 50mm. Why? Because on a photography camera, that is considered the standard "portrait lens" size. It is the most common, and the most manufactured (and therefore also the easiest and cheapest to find). This is where crop sensors become an issue to many of us. To get the same FOV as the 50mm portrait lens, the GH2 needs something like a 28mm. To get really great low light performance, finding a 50mm f/1.4 is stupid easy. But finding a 28mm F/1.4? Not so much. Sure, there is the Lumix pancake lens at F1.7, but that is one of the rare options that exist and will only be compatible with other micro 4/3rds mount cameras in the future.
The general advice on this forum is to invest in glass for the long haul, and not in camera bodies. That means I'd like invest in full frame lenses that will be compatible on just about any body I choose, and hence the reference to full frame crop values.
Not that any of this really matters, use what works for you and your background. Those of us who are just starting out in the world of interchangeable lens cameras don't see the value in comparing to the old cinema film size, when everything else we see is comparing it to full frame. But if you are coming from that background I get it. Aren't we all entitled to our own perspective here? Since when are we deciding industry standards?
Me thinks the basic point is that, aside from the scarce few tv show episodes and one or two theatrical releases, nothing else is being shot Full Frame. The working industry still operates around that standard. If you aren't part of that working industry then it doesn't really matter what you do.
Do what you want, no one's stopping anyone. Either the crop factor is 1.4 or 1.86. Just know that the 1.4 figure is from what you're used to seeing in a major motion picture sub iMax.
Do what you want, no one's stopping anyone. Either the crop factor is 1.4 or 1.86. Just know that the 1.4 figure is from what you're used to seeing in a major motion picture sub iMax.
Here are the screen clips between the Canon 7D and GH2 from PB's Christmas shootout Part 1. One is the location of the cam for the test and the other is the actual image with it's corresponding field of view. There is no question that there is a significant difference between the ASP-C and the GH2.
From this test I'll suggest that the GH2 is still a 2x crop from 35mm still film perspective regardless of what machinations with numbers folks come up with.
As this is an HDSLR forum where we are discussing stills cameras and stills lenses for the most part, the appropriate crop to mention is vs 35mm stills film IMHO. Seems to me that is almost exclusively how we have been discussing it for as long as I've been lurking around here
Cheers,
Pete
From this test I'll suggest that the GH2 is still a 2x crop from 35mm still film perspective regardless of what machinations with numbers folks come up with.
As this is an HDSLR forum where we are discussing stills cameras and stills lenses for the most part, the appropriate crop to mention is vs 35mm stills film IMHO. Seems to me that is almost exclusively how we have been discussing it for as long as I've been lurking around here
Cheers,
Pete
Barry_Green
Moderator
At the same distance from the subject? Yes. You would have to stop down the m4/3 camera by about a half a stop to equalize the DOF for the same shot.
Barry_Green
Moderator
They're not. The lens is the same. It's the sensor that "sees more" on the stills camera.
Absolutely zero difference.
A millimeter is a millimeter. Any 50mm lens will produce exactly the same magnification as any other 50mm lens. The only difference is how large of an area the lens illuminates -- a lens designed for a smaller format will project a circle of illumination over that smaller area. But the magnification will be exactly the same, and what the sensor will see is exactly the same.
Cinema lenses are designed to cover the 35mm or S35mm film frame, being about a 27mm diagonal circle. A FF stills lens is designed to cover the full frame image, about a 43mm diagonal circle. But the central 27mm will look identical to the cinema lens's projection. And a GH2, with about a 20mm diagonal sensor, will see exactly the same image from either of them.
Here are the screen clips between the Canon 7D and GH2 from PB's Christmas shootout Part 1. One is the location of the cam for the test and the other is the actual image with it's corresponding field of view. There is no question that there is a significant difference between the ASP-C and the GH2.
From this test I'll suggest that the GH2 is still a 2x crop from 35mm still film perspective regardless of what machinations with numbers folks come up with.
As this is an HDSLR forum where we are discussing stills cameras and stills lenses for the most part, the appropriate crop to mention is vs 35mm stills film IMHO. Seems to me that is almost exclusively how we have been discussing it for as long as I've been lurking around here
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Cheers,
Pete
And Mr. Bloom himself (the patron saint of DSLR adoption) has been caught very often referring to the crop of his AF100 as "2x", clearly referring to 35mm full frame.
While the GH2's sensor is actually a bit bigger than the AF100 (supposedly), we are still gravitating around 1.86, which is easily close enough to 2x when referencing full frame in casual conversation.
David W. Jones
Veteran
^^^ Barry is absolutely correct here!
As this is an HDSLR forum where we are discussing stills cameras and stills lenses for the most part, the appropriate crop to mention is vs 35mm stills film IMHO. Seems to me that is almost exclusively how we have been discussing it for as long as I've been lurking around here
Actually it's a filmmaking forum and you're in the HDSLR section of the forum where were are discussing using HDSLRs for cinematography and filmmaking. There's very little, almost zero, discussion about stills photography going on here.
Yep, that was clarified. It's as I originally thought, but with some of the stuff that was being said I started getting confused and second-guessing myself. Nice to know I wasn't wrong originally.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Maybe not as much in this particular section (since the GH2 isn't really the popular choice for stills), but over in the Canon DSLR section we've had quite a few discussions about photography. Especially in discussing lens selection (where crop factor is often brought up). Many users buy lenses for both photography and video in mind.