BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
I've seen a set of Illuminas and I have to say that the build quality was atrocious. The barrels were made of injection molded plastic that felt gross to touch and had pits.
I've seen a set of Illuminas and I have to say that the build quality was atrocious. The barrels were made of injection molded plastic that felt gross to touch and had pits.
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
There isnt an 18mm cine-xenar right?.
Interesting bit is they are the only cinema lens set that has a telecentric design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecentric_lens) Not sure how much youll notice the telecentric effects in the image compared to a normal lens- which may be a negative based on your tastes. (Maybe just in the longer or wider focal lengths- causing a loss of image compression or loss of perspective on a wide angle)? Worth looking into that.
Im just going on what I heard by reputable "lens people" but they are telecentric in design because they were originally made for precision machine vision (where telecentric is very desirable) and repurposed for cinema use.
Interesting bit is they are the only cinema lens set that has a telecentric design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecentric_lens) Not sure how much youll notice the telecentric effects in the image compared to a normal lens- which may be a negative based on your tastes. (Maybe just in the longer or wider focal lengths- causing a loss of image compression or loss of perspective on a wide angle)? Worth looking into that.
Im just going on what I heard by reputable "lens people" but they are telecentric in design because they were originally made for precision machine vision (where telecentric is very desirable) and repurposed for cinema use.
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
Your right, but most digital use telecentric for even light projection across a digital sensor, where these lenses may actually exhibit some visible telecentric traits as they are completely telecentric. Not negative effects, just different- which is why it would be good to compare them in the real world to normal lenses if your looking to drop that amount of coin : )
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
Found this pdf for more research:
https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/industrial/Telecentric_Lenses.pdf
https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/industrial/Telecentric_Lenses.pdf
Joe, on paper they are the over all winner. But using them makes you want to kill yourself. The lens walks so much while focusing that standard matteboxes and follow focuses become unuseable.
Optically they are good, ergonomicallytThey are a mess, imo.
tom.wong
Well-known member
the sub 20k options for lens sets are very limited, and there's always a compromise. The ones I've seen from experience that get the job done the best,
CP1's, I think a tad cheaper than cp2's, they may be mismatched lenses in speed, but it's not like the cp2's are matched so well anyway, might as well have a fasters 50 mm, and 85 mm in your arsenal. REALLY freakin light, best if you want a very light rig. (xenars are heavy too btw, weighs as much as RPP's)
worst things about CP lenses, they breathe a decent amount, wide open they are very soft, and suffer color shifts. color matching across the lenses in general isn't that great.
k-35's if you can find them, I love these little guys. focus marks aren't perfect, tough soft, but they are pretty much canon FD lenses. great little owner operator lenses, not really much of a rental item. But they got character and do the job very nicely. If you shot with FD lenses, these are the same thing, just cine rehoused.
RPP's, great bang for the buck. Matched speeds. Color matching is decent, not great. REALLY sharp, nice contrast. Gives ultra primes a run for their money if you are just looking at those 2 factors. not much breathing.
flaring displeases a lot of people, heavy, big, focus markings are a bit off.
lastly there are standard speeds, which are great lenses, and have been a staple for years. Unfortunately, the wider angle lenses have a good chance of vingetting on modern sensors. I believe the 18 mm was vingetting on a R1 MX, good luck on a epic, and F3 has a very large S35 sensor too, i think slightly bigger than the R1. they aren't very future proof.
if you absolutely need to own, I'd say CP1's, or RPP's. If you don't need to own, don't even bother, and just rent. and or save up more for a better set in general. a nice set of DP rouges, Panchros, or a modest set of Ultra Primse IMHO is the ultimate indie lens package you can own.
CP1's, I think a tad cheaper than cp2's, they may be mismatched lenses in speed, but it's not like the cp2's are matched so well anyway, might as well have a fasters 50 mm, and 85 mm in your arsenal. REALLY freakin light, best if you want a very light rig. (xenars are heavy too btw, weighs as much as RPP's)
worst things about CP lenses, they breathe a decent amount, wide open they are very soft, and suffer color shifts. color matching across the lenses in general isn't that great.
k-35's if you can find them, I love these little guys. focus marks aren't perfect, tough soft, but they are pretty much canon FD lenses. great little owner operator lenses, not really much of a rental item. But they got character and do the job very nicely. If you shot with FD lenses, these are the same thing, just cine rehoused.
RPP's, great bang for the buck. Matched speeds. Color matching is decent, not great. REALLY sharp, nice contrast. Gives ultra primes a run for their money if you are just looking at those 2 factors. not much breathing.
flaring displeases a lot of people, heavy, big, focus markings are a bit off.
lastly there are standard speeds, which are great lenses, and have been a staple for years. Unfortunately, the wider angle lenses have a good chance of vingetting on modern sensors. I believe the 18 mm was vingetting on a R1 MX, good luck on a epic, and F3 has a very large S35 sensor too, i think slightly bigger than the R1. they aren't very future proof.
if you absolutely need to own, I'd say CP1's, or RPP's. If you don't need to own, don't even bother, and just rent. and or save up more for a better set in general. a nice set of DP rouges, Panchros, or a modest set of Ultra Primse IMHO is the ultimate indie lens package you can own.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I went with Cooke Panchro/i's like Timur, but I understand those are just out of the price bracket you are looking at. if I were in the market for around 20k glass, I'd probably go with a quality zoom lens, such as the other lens Timur has, which is a great older Cooke zoom.
If I had to pick from the original list, or from a prime set, I really do like the standard speeds. I think they are actually better than the super speeds. Super speeds have always, always sacrificed quality in the name of speed. I don't like that. In fact, some superspeeds become so soft at wide open, it looks out of focus. What is the point of paying extra for speed, when that is the result? Get standards. Some old Cooke and Angeniuex lenses are great, but some are mediocre. You really need to understand the differences between them before buying.
Very true.
If I had to pick from the original list, or from a prime set, I really do like the standard speeds. I think they are actually better than the super speeds. Super speeds have always, always sacrificed quality in the name of speed. I don't like that. In fact, some superspeeds become so soft at wide open, it looks out of focus. What is the point of paying extra for speed, when that is the result? Get standards. Some old Cooke and Angeniuex lenses are great, but some are mediocre. You really need to understand the differences between them before buying.
Very true.
The biggest problem for me has been getting Fast Wide lenses.(16-18mm)
At the moment there is only one affordable one-RED Pro 18mm T1.8.
But it is just too heavy for me. Tom you are right about Zeiss CP.1 50mm T1.5 and 85mm T1.5. I heard Zeiss are working on new 18mm. I hope it will be T2.0. They have technology already but don't want to release it for that money.
Perhaps the best option is to buy Second Hand UltraPrimes one by one or get hold of some S35 Illuminas . I do not really see point spending money on T2.8 primes for my applications.
At the moment there is only one affordable one-RED Pro 18mm T1.8.
But it is just too heavy for me. Tom you are right about Zeiss CP.1 50mm T1.5 and 85mm T1.5. I heard Zeiss are working on new 18mm. I hope it will be T2.0. They have technology already but don't want to release it for that money.
Perhaps the best option is to buy Second Hand UltraPrimes one by one or get hold of some S35 Illuminas . I do not really see point spending money on T2.8 primes for my applications.
G
G.P.
Guest
Really? the photos make them look like they are built out of solid metal like the RPPs?
So now I'm still hunting for my right choice, I may be swaying away from the Xenars now if the mechanical extension is such a turn off for everyone else. Its a hard decision, and I'll be playing with all the lenses soon... My other close option was the RPP's... I gotta say the consistency in Tstop and the ability to purchase more to grow later on is a big plus.... I know a lot of DP's that still swear by those lenses... But there are others who dont want anything less than Cookes.... so I think I need to just do extensive testing for myself. I've shot a whole feature film with the RPPs so I'm very familiar with them. I've never really shot a piece with the CP.2's, I've only held them and played with them on a camera a few times. I might have to do a testing day/week with lenses.
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
It is a strange comment about the illuminas, the super16mm set I had were on par with anything zeiss- full metal and excellent image quality. I know the new 35mm set should be built really well, the only plastic PL lenses are the SONY primes to my knowledge. Maybe that was what you meant?
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
Giuseppe and Hunter,
I got to inspect a set of Illuminas in 2010, so I promise you, they were Illuminas and not Sonys
.
Here's a link from their website, you can clearly see that the barrels are plastic:
http://www.lumatechinc.com/S35.html
You can also see how the witness marks and other writing are depression in the plastic filled in with paint. But what really horrified me was the pitting that I saw in the plastic housings.
But maybe they are better now. If you can get a chance to demo them, I think that would be a good thing to do. The price is excellent.
But with a price so good, why does essentially no one own them (judging from web discussions)?
I got to inspect a set of Illuminas in 2010, so I promise you, they were Illuminas and not Sonys
.Here's a link from their website, you can clearly see that the barrels are plastic:
http://www.lumatechinc.com/S35.html
You can also see how the witness marks and other writing are depression in the plastic filled in with paint. But what really horrified me was the pitting that I saw in the plastic housings.
But maybe they are better now. If you can get a chance to demo them, I think that would be a good thing to do. The price is excellent.
But with a price so good, why does essentially no one own them (judging from web discussions)?
Truth is, the work that i do, the clinets would not want RPP, CP1/2 or Xenars. they want Cooke, Ultra primes, or Angenieux.
The name says alot. And remember, there is no free lunch. You will get exactly what you pay for. The fast cheap good, in terms of lenses is actually more like Fast(aperture), Cheap, small/light, Sharp, Matching, Rentable, durable. If youre paying more than 80k for a set, you get all of em.
RPP are sharp and cheap.
CP1/2 Small, Cheap
Illuminas Fast, small
Xenars Fast, cheap
Optitek: Fast, small
Panchros: Small/light, Rentable, Durable, sharp, Matching
Ultras/S4's: All of the above.
The name says alot. And remember, there is no free lunch. You will get exactly what you pay for. The fast cheap good, in terms of lenses is actually more like Fast(aperture), Cheap, small/light, Sharp, Matching, Rentable, durable. If youre paying more than 80k for a set, you get all of em.
RPP are sharp and cheap.
CP1/2 Small, Cheap
Illuminas Fast, small
Xenars Fast, cheap
Optitek: Fast, small
Panchros: Small/light, Rentable, Durable, sharp, Matching
Ultras/S4's: All of the above.
Not at a clean 1600 ISO.....
Also, the panchros are effectively S4's. They are some of the most tightly color matched, contrast matched, and sharpest lenses around. ( contrary to popular belief, Cookes are balls sharp)
Also, the panchros are effectively S4's. They are some of the most tightly color matched, contrast matched, and sharpest lenses around. ( contrary to popular belief, Cookes are balls sharp)
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I would have to disagree a bit.
Don't you remember a couple of years ago when the RedOne, HVX200, and Panavision Genesis were all being rated at 320iso? I wouldn't dare push my RedOne past 400iso! Now we have Arri Alexa, Sony F3, Phantom Flex, RedOne MX, Sony F35 (and MANY more on the way) commonly rated at 800iso or 1000iso... A stop and a half more sensitive (and climbing)!
Either everyone concerned about a T/2.8 stop started shooting in the last 18 months, or they have already forgotten what it was like in the past.
I think T/2.8 is only slow if you are on a super low-budget production that insists on shooting upon a rural road at 4am.
Plus, Cooke Panchro/i's are professional grade glass... it's one of the most affordable 'top shelf' lens sets, so if you are using Cooke glass, but you can't afford any lighting, your UPM or LP has his/her priorities all wrong. Get some lights and get shooting. A T/2.8 in 2011 is like having a T/1.8 in 2008. Remember those golden days of cinema... 2008?
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What's up guys?
Hey Giuseppe, how you doing?
I just finished a feature with Alexa and a set of Alura's. And, honestly? I didn't miss working with primes.
The 18-80 is in the 25k range (9k over of what you have now). But hey, it's a future possibility. Besides, you can consider to get rid of the Red zoom and to be closer to the amount of $.
I haven't tried the Alura's with the F3. But considering what I've done so far with these lenses, I would say that they are great together.
These zooms rent VERY well down here in Argentina. I don't see why not in the States.
I hope it helps,
A.-
Hey Giuseppe, how you doing?
I just finished a feature with Alexa and a set of Alura's. And, honestly? I didn't miss working with primes.
The 18-80 is in the 25k range (9k over of what you have now). But hey, it's a future possibility. Besides, you can consider to get rid of the Red zoom and to be closer to the amount of $.
I haven't tried the Alura's with the F3. But considering what I've done so far with these lenses, I would say that they are great together.
These zooms rent VERY well down here in Argentina. I don't see why not in the States.
I hope it helps,
A.-
Panchros are fantastic lenses well made.
But you know as well as i do why S4,Master Primes,Ultra Primes and other lenses are used.
Now regarding warmth and colour of Cooke lenses when compared to lets say Zeiss(sterile look)-there is such a thing called Grading....
Anyway Pachros are great lenses!
But you know as well as i do why S4,Master Primes,Ultra Primes and other lenses are used.
Now regarding warmth and colour of Cooke lenses when compared to lets say Zeiss(sterile look)-there is such a thing called Grading....
Anyway Pachros are great lenses!
I would have to disagree a bit.
Don't you remember a couple of years ago when the RedOne, HVX200, and Panavision Genesis were all being rated at 320iso? I wouldn't dare push my RedOne past 400iso! Now we have Arri Alexa, Sony F3, Phantom Flex, RedOne MX, Sony F35 (and MANY more on the way) commonly rated at 800iso or 1000iso... A stop and a half more sensitive (and climbing)!
Either everyone concerned about a T/2.8 stop started shooting in the last 18 months, or they have already forgotten what it was like in the past.
I think T/2.8 is only slow if you are on a super low-budget production that insists on shooting upon a rural road at 4am.
I would have to disagree a bit.
Don't you remember a couple of years ago when the RedOne, HVX200, and Panavision Genesis were all being rated at 320iso? I wouldn't dare push my RedOne past 400iso! Now we have Arri Alexa, Sony F3, Phantom Flex, RedOne MX, Sony F35 (and MANY more on the way) commonly rated at 800iso or 1000iso... A stop and a half more sensitive (and climbing)!
Either everyone concerned about a T/2.8 stop started shooting in the last 18 months, or they have already forgotten what it was like in the past.
I think T/2.8 is only slow if you are on a super low-budget production that insists on shooting upon a rural road at 4am.
we need a "like" button....