Ruben/Sheri
Well-known member
How soon we forget.. and btw how old are you? my age is on my profile
Colors on the FS700 seem way better than the 100, CineGamma's Rule!
- Thread starter Ruben/Sheri
- Start date
Nirv
Carbonite Member
You could always use the quote feature to quote all my negative comments on the FS700. Happy hunting.
Ruben/Sheri
Well-known member
=)
stevedocmaker
Well-known member
After months of trial and error, I believe I have for the most part tamed the color problems with the FS100, by using the PP below in concert with a Heliopan Digital filter (which tames the IR).
Blk Lev: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Blk Gamma: High, 7
Knee: 100, -1
Color Mode: Cine2, 8
Color Lev: -2
Color Phase: -1
Color Depth: -1, +3, +4, +7, +2, +7
WB Shift: LB-CC, -1, -2, -2, 0
Detail: -4
I know there have been many threads about this, but I feel that this is the best one can do with this camera. The Heliopan filter makes a huge difference with skin tones and red fabrics. I don't have an FS700 to compare this with, but I have not seen anything in the posted footage from this camera that indicates much, if any, improvement over the FS100 with this setup. I do think the highlight rolloff on the FS700 looks a tad better with the Cinegamma curves though, but it's not a dramatic improvement, and clearly the image can hold a tad more detail (with increased aliasing as a trade-off).
If this is the case, then the differences between the two cameras become less significant, and the extra $4K is hard to justify. Once there's a lens that can utilize the rocker and there's a 4K recording device, that may not be true. I still wish they had put a thumbwheel on the handgrip for ISO/Gain control.
Blk Lev: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Blk Gamma: High, 7
Knee: 100, -1
Color Mode: Cine2, 8
Color Lev: -2
Color Phase: -1
Color Depth: -1, +3, +4, +7, +2, +7
WB Shift: LB-CC, -1, -2, -2, 0
Detail: -4
I know there have been many threads about this, but I feel that this is the best one can do with this camera. The Heliopan filter makes a huge difference with skin tones and red fabrics. I don't have an FS700 to compare this with, but I have not seen anything in the posted footage from this camera that indicates much, if any, improvement over the FS100 with this setup. I do think the highlight rolloff on the FS700 looks a tad better with the Cinegamma curves though, but it's not a dramatic improvement, and clearly the image can hold a tad more detail (with increased aliasing as a trade-off).
If this is the case, then the differences between the two cameras become less significant, and the extra $4K is hard to justify. Once there's a lens that can utilize the rocker and there's a 4K recording device, that may not be true. I still wish they had put a thumbwheel on the handgrip for ISO/Gain control.
I also do not have color problems with my FS100 with the profiles I use with a Heliopan variable ND. I will
say like Nirv recommended I white balance often
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
+1 for the Heliopan Digital filter - I use it religiously.
Frank
Frank
Why are you so bent on not liking this camera ? I do see vignette btw, as 4 DR not going to get into a pointless discussion, you are not a fan of this camera it seems and don't see what I see, but hey that's what makes us individuals, if we saw things the same way life would be boring =)
I have not heard Nirv say anything that would support the above statement, but I have read statements by Ruben/Sheri that talk negative about the FS100. I don't have the problems with my camera you seem to have with yours. What profiles are you using and what ND filter do you have.
I am shooting a comedy short this weekend, I will try to post some pics when I get a chance.
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
709 gamma??? yuck!
You also can use Standard, which rolls off a bit nicer.
But sooner or later (when you shoot for TV/DVD/BLURAY) you have to conform to 709 anyway.
And it´s not as crashed as the Cinegammas - so you have more room to play with.
I use them only, when I know, I have to hand out the footy to someone who will do no grading.
Frank
Nirv
Carbonite Member
Originally Posted by Ruben/Sheri
Why are you so bent on not liking this camera ? I do see vignette btw, as 4 DR not going to get into a pointless discussion, you are not a fan of this camera it seems and don't see what I see, but hey that's what makes us individuals, if we saw things the same way life would be boring =)
I have not heard Nirv say anything that would support the above statement, but I have read statements by Ruben/Sheri that talk negative about the FS100. I don't have the problems with my camera you seem to have with yours. What profiles are you using and what ND filter do you have.
I am shooting a comedy short this weekend, I will try to post some pics when I get a chance.
Thanks Gary, I haven't said anything negative about the FS700 at all. But if I were to I would back up any such comments. There's nothing to dislike about the FS700 but in terms of bang for buck (for me) the FS100 still comes out on top.
Good luck with the short and I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labours.
Again I invite Ruben/Sheri to go though my posting history and quote any example of negativity. I suspect Ruben/Sheri has got what they wanted by getting a rise out of the situation. The trolling hasn't gone unnoticed.
Scott F
Pug Life
Now that I can get behind. This is Sheri, right?
Wait….it's not?
Gentleman, avert your eyes!
Ruben/Sheri
Well-known member
This is Sheri btw =) I guess because I'm a girl in a room with guys it's hard to defend myself properly because my husband does most of the shooting editing and I have to color correct, and no we are not trolls! Why is it that when someone doesn't like a certain feature of a camera, for example, like we don't like the 100 colors and see problems, why are we trolls? All i'm saying at the end of the day I like the colors I have seen from the 700 better than the 100, to my eyes there are significant difference in picture quality and color, but I understand if you don't see what I see, just wanted to post another video. I am excited about the new FS700.. Sorry Nirv if I touched a Nirv... As for Nirv you being negative, it's in the tone you take with me that seems more negative I guess, but oh well I guess I won't post anymore =(
Hey Sheri, I wouldn't let a few people keep you from posting. Post away IMO. I guess when you are dealing with Cameras, people are really passionate and opinionated about it. I don't think anyone means anything personal by it.
Plus it's good to have a female in the forum to break up all the testosterone.
Plus it's good to have a female in the forum to break up all the testosterone.
Ruben/Sheri
Well-known member
Thank u =)
paulcurtis
Veteran
Surely the point being made is that it's very difficult to generalise about the colour of X or Y by viewing examples online and in very, very different shooting situations. Let alone how massaged those samples have been. The only true test will be side by side comparisons - Frank did a few and i'm sure when the 700s start reaching our hands then there will be others. In theory sony would have given the pre pro camera to people who know how to shoot properly, therefore it should be expected to see 'better' footage.
I mean i could round up some truly awful Epic footage and some great EX1 footage and proclaim that the EX1 is so much better than the Epic...
I think making these generalisations is potentially a bit like the v2 firmware threads - championing different colorimetry and in fact there was NO difference whatsoever (as i tested before and after)
What we know is that the cinegammas definitely do help in some situations and as Nirv points out actually it's the ND filters that are really welcome because the various ND solutions on the 100 are a minefield within themselves - introducing all sorts of potential colour casts. Whether there are changes to the overall colour processing i think remains to be seen. From samples, the highlight rolloff is better handled but beyond that unless you match the settings like for like in the 100/700 you may just be comparing peoples individual picture profiles not the camera processing...
This thread is useless without side by side comparisons
cheers
paul
I mean i could round up some truly awful Epic footage and some great EX1 footage and proclaim that the EX1 is so much better than the Epic...
I think making these generalisations is potentially a bit like the v2 firmware threads - championing different colorimetry and in fact there was NO difference whatsoever (as i tested before and after)
What we know is that the cinegammas definitely do help in some situations and as Nirv points out actually it's the ND filters that are really welcome because the various ND solutions on the 100 are a minefield within themselves - introducing all sorts of potential colour casts. Whether there are changes to the overall colour processing i think remains to be seen. From samples, the highlight rolloff is better handled but beyond that unless you match the settings like for like in the 100/700 you may just be comparing peoples individual picture profiles not the camera processing...
This thread is useless without side by side comparisons
cheers
paul
MattDavis
Well-known member
This thread is useless without side by side comparisons
Well, funnily enough, I had a chance last weekend to recreate a spectacularly awful scene where I put an FS100 (v1) side by side with an EX1R and a Canon 5dMk2, but this time I had my FS100 at v2 AND I had a late prototype FS700 to play with. I think FCP7 or Photoshop has done something to the Gamma as the JPEGs look rather more contrasty than they do in FCP7, but you get the general idea. I was specifically looking at the blinds behind Alex. These were for my own edification rather than a proper 'PVC style' test, so I won't be fishing for comments on lighting!
(typical UK summer, sun in and out, varying by the second, limited window of opportunity - oops, pun not intended). Excuses, excuses. To business:
Here the FS100 does its highlight thing, creating 'cadaver yellow next to tipp-ex' highlights. This can happen on skin tone.
The EX1R with its CineGamma does a far better job at rendering the light beech slats behind Alex.
As does the Canon 5d Mk2, albeit with its rather more crushed blacks and 'built in skin enhancer' (joking)
Here is my FS100 again, almost a year on, shot at the same time of day in the same conditions, and I will have to say this: 'With Version 2 Software' (I swear I see a difference, and yes it's the same PP)
And finally, the FS700 using CineGamma 3. Very happy to see this has much more in common with the EX1 and Canon.
The only way I could get my v2 FS100 to do anything close to the same thing as the v1 FS was to up the chroma and use Rec709 colour on a CineTone1 setting, but even then it was close but not as bad. I went on a Rec709 hate-fest for a while, but I'm over that. The Rec709s are helpful on drab days where its limited range pulls some excitement out of your Ext GVs, but for me the 709 Colour in particular is a bit like drawing your scene with wax crayons. Colourful, cheerful, but seems to break very easily.
But that's behind us. I'm buying the FS700 for its CineGammas, NDs and Spot Focus (for my sins, I do a lot of R&G and VoxPops). I've really missed CineGammas on the FS100 and have wasted a lot of time and energy working around this.
paulcurtis
Veteran
That's a great example Matt, thanks. And it's nice to see you tidied up your CD case over the year.
I have to say i've never seen anything as bad as your first FS sample, you did mention when the V2 threads were going on perhaps the new firmware erased some kind of settings that had been overlooked. Nevertheless the 100 V2 to the 700 seems like a very positive change.
What internal light were you using and what WB? There's a kind of yellow pallor to some Alex's skin, (and i hope it's not him) and just some interplay of bounced light/light source.
I'm quite convinced that some of the skin issues are light source issues, with all the LED rage, the various cheap flouros you need to be source that your source is sympathetic to your subject. There's so little quantification of LED quality that the range out there is massive. Having said that the LEDs are really convienent and i do use them a lot but usually as accent. I have a nice new LED508 bicolour one here that i'm testing for colour reproduction.
I'm with you on the 700 purchase, how does the spot focus work? What else did you find with the 700? Did you try the face tracking? Does that work at all (yes, i am that lazy at times)?
cheers
paul
MattDavis
Well-known member
I was using the 'Matt's Safe' PP from http://bit.ly/fs100pp - which turned out not to be that safe after all in this particular case. I believe the nub of the problem was the ITU709 colour profile, which is of course cheerful and colourful, but designed for a 5 stop range. The CineTone and Normal colour profiles were fine if dull in comparison - which probably explains the drift back towards the perfectly serviceable 'Standard' profile as CineTone (not CineGamma, Cine*Tone*) was intended to provide a 'graded' look in-camera, not provide a camera original suitable for grading.
The scene was lit by a cheap 1x1 style panel - not ghastly cheap, but not really in the >93 CRI realm. There was a lot of yellow spill from the blinds - on the first shoot it was a bit more controlled as I had shifted a lot of furniture. On the second shoot, the panel was far closer to Alex and thus we have greater fall-off, and the last shot above is overexposed (to try and push the blinds/Red channel to fall off its perch).
On both occasions we were both a little shiny after putting the Pop Up Greenscreen away (always a tense activity).
As far as Spot Focus goes, it's brilliant - not fool proof, but just what one needs with E-Mount lenses - which I'd say are 'tamed' now. It doesn't make the LE-EA2 redundant - in fact, a true FSx00-er would have an LE-EA2/Alpha lens for pulling focus in slomo shooting AND an E-Lens for tap focusing and face detection. Here's a demo:
I did try to get some tracking shots - Alex walking through a couple of rooms, my son wandering around the living room (not the sort of footage I'd expect anyone else to watch) and, yes - it works. It's not fast, it's not foolproof, but it makes the kit lens BETTER. The face detection certainly means you can use AF on a handheld voxpop and pretty much guarantee that the face is in focus rather than the background. Ideally you'd be using an EVF and a manual lens, riding the focus, but snatching interviews at trade shows or outdoors when it's the client dragging you to some poor innocent delegate whose 7' tall and you can barely see the viewfinder... (sorry, it's all coming back, I need a little lie-down in a dark room)
So, yeah. Focus aids work. For e-Mounts. As does a mode you flip and the bottom row of buttons become 'set focus point A' 'set focus point B' and 'toggle between focus points'. AF is anathema to a lot of Professionals, but there are times you can't bring a 22" production monitor, and you are scrabbling to get a shot that's nicely composed and correctly exposed and if the machine can help, that's great - because whilst you can tweak the colour and even reframe slightly in post, if the focus is out the shot is toast.
The scene was lit by a cheap 1x1 style panel - not ghastly cheap, but not really in the >93 CRI realm. There was a lot of yellow spill from the blinds - on the first shoot it was a bit more controlled as I had shifted a lot of furniture. On the second shoot, the panel was far closer to Alex and thus we have greater fall-off, and the last shot above is overexposed (to try and push the blinds/Red channel to fall off its perch).
On both occasions we were both a little shiny after putting the Pop Up Greenscreen away (always a tense activity).
As far as Spot Focus goes, it's brilliant - not fool proof, but just what one needs with E-Mount lenses - which I'd say are 'tamed' now. It doesn't make the LE-EA2 redundant - in fact, a true FSx00-er would have an LE-EA2/Alpha lens for pulling focus in slomo shooting AND an E-Lens for tap focusing and face detection. Here's a demo:
I did try to get some tracking shots - Alex walking through a couple of rooms, my son wandering around the living room (not the sort of footage I'd expect anyone else to watch) and, yes - it works. It's not fast, it's not foolproof, but it makes the kit lens BETTER. The face detection certainly means you can use AF on a handheld voxpop and pretty much guarantee that the face is in focus rather than the background. Ideally you'd be using an EVF and a manual lens, riding the focus, but snatching interviews at trade shows or outdoors when it's the client dragging you to some poor innocent delegate whose 7' tall and you can barely see the viewfinder... (sorry, it's all coming back, I need a little lie-down in a dark room)
So, yeah. Focus aids work. For e-Mounts. As does a mode you flip and the bottom row of buttons become 'set focus point A' 'set focus point B' and 'toggle between focus points'. AF is anathema to a lot of Professionals, but there are times you can't bring a 22" production monitor, and you are scrabbling to get a shot that's nicely composed and correctly exposed and if the machine can help, that's great - because whilst you can tweak the colour and even reframe slightly in post, if the focus is out the shot is toast.
paulcurtis
Veteran
Matt, thanks, very informative. I assume these focus functions are e-mount only? I do have the LA-EA2 and the lenses but i'm unsure whether it would work on those - by touching the screen means that the CDAF can find the focus anywhere whereas you're dependent on the location of the physical focus points on phase detect to hit focus.
Well if sony actually pull their fingers out then perhaps we'll get some decent e mounts in the not too distant future
I see schneider are talking about a 21mm f2 in emount (i believe with AF focus too...) if other manufacturers can jump on board then the future looks rosy, sony have done very well with the NEX range so the market is there.
Thought it might have been LED. Someone, somewhere really needs to find a good way of quantifying all these brands and the colour response...
thanks again
paul
Well if sony actually pull their fingers out then perhaps we'll get some decent e mounts in the not too distant future
I see schneider are talking about a 21mm f2 in emount (i believe with AF focus too...) if other manufacturers can jump on board then the future looks rosy, sony have done very well with the NEX range so the market is there.
Thought it might have been LED. Someone, somewhere really needs to find a good way of quantifying all these brands and the colour response...
thanks again
paul