Cinema EOS Announcement on 19th Jan - EOS R5C

[NorBro]

The coordinated IS control system that was introduced in the R5 with IBIS is clearly working better, but I don't know if it's a fair test for the digital-only R5 C (which does have coordinated control as well but it's not over the same system).

And for what it's worth, the 24-70 has a combined 8 stops and the 15-35 has a combined 7 stops.

So he's using the worse IS performing lens for the more challenged camera.

Still though, a nice test, and not too unexpected, I would say.

 

[cyvideo]

but cinematography.. usually the camera is run by a team of four and there are two more people gathering sound - not to mention an extended post process to synch it all up.

I understand this MM This is how I learnt my trade at the BBC on drama production.

Regardless though, no matter how much you build up any mirrorless for cinema type production it's almost impossible to work with a 1st AC who often needs access to the settings panel on the camera during shooting. Like the extended positional panel, you can use on the LT or the full access menu on the AC's side of the camera like on the Venice, Panavision and ARRI cameras. That was one of the main drawbacks with the F55 as its menu panel was on the operator's side. Sony fixed that with the Venice. The F55 was best suited for solo operators. Still a great camera in many respects. Just look at The Crown and The Blacklist just to name a few productions. What was often mentioned was that if you were on a track and dolly you would have to jump off the rig for the AC to make any shooting changes that were required. For a full crew production with a 1st and 2nd AC and Dolly grip working with any mirrorless camera becomes a real compromise over established production crew practice. "Sorry, op. I need to access your rear 'touch' screen as the DP wants to over crank this next scene.. so get out of my way." I won't even get into focus pulling with a mirrorless rig when having to rely on HDMI for remote focus monitoring. The delay over HDMI, often in the order of five to six frames makes accurate fast focus pulling a pretty hard ask when working with fast shallow lensing. Even worse with HDMI over WiFi or video link. Audio? That's a whole other discussion. Mirrorless for solo ops is a different story. But for full crewing production mirrorless invites too many compromises for me. Look, I'm not against the development of mirrorless coming into the production world but any way I cut it they are a compromise when compared to a true cinema production camera, On the other hand, I wouldn't be without a mirrorless for many of the advantages it can offer me in a variety of production situations.

It all goes to the heart of your "I do nothing to be good, just try and avoid embarrassing myself!" comment.

I wonder. Out of curiosity how many on this forum are working in a full cinema production environment and are working with mirrorless cameras? And if so what are your experiences?

Chris Young

 

[NorBro]

I don't know what it is with this Cinema EOS department and AF...all of the cinema cameras are limited in one way or another with AF compared to the stills cameras.

Maybe it was already mentioned in this thread, but just noticed the C has only 80% coverage for H and V compared to 100% H and V on the R5 (with RF lenses).

This was a problem for me with the 1DX Mark II when I had two people in the frame for an interview who might have been too close to the edges (exactly how they are in the sample below but further apart) because the face-recognition may stop working. But should be OKAY for most uses.

 

[morgan_moore]

I understand this MM This is how I learnt my trade at the BBC on drama production.

Regardless though, no matter how much you build up any mirrorless for cinema type production it's almost impossible to work with a 1st AC who often needs

Im not sure the point you are persuing.. I thought you were saying it is a camera to be built so missing NDs and the like didnt matter.

I dont agree as there are better cameras IMO (for the money) to build.. it seems that you argree with that too!

--

Iver recently worked on a drama it was formal, and used arri alexa LF, befroe that I worked on an ad.. on an arri alexa LF..

Last weekend the op had a c200 with 70-200 on a shoulder rig, and an r5 on a gimal and a bloke to carry the one he wasnt using and juggle NDs.. it seems a good setup.

I dont think mirrorless gets onto drama in the UK

Im not saying I have 100% approval of the uk drama/arri strong hold. Id like to see some cheaper kit (C200/300/500) and better wages for the crew.

 

[Liam Hall]

Agreed. IBIS on Canon for video is not very good at all. I have the R6 and its nice for static shots and slow careful movements. Absolutely no gimbal replacement at all. I wouldn't consider the lack of IBIS on the R5c a devastating loss. Most would end up using a gimbal anyway.

I generally only use IBIS on stills with my R5 as it's too unpredictable.

 

[indiawilds]

R5 v R5c IBIS real world video comparison. Interesting:

Good to see this video. I don't care for IBIS because I am not going to use something which compromises my footage.

NO ND: Shooting with a built-in ND filter is such a pleasure in doc work. Without the ND, either I have to use a mattebox and filters or screw on filters in front of lens like still shooters. Canon has a third option, if you take into consideration the adapter that has ND. I have to seriously give a thought to it. In some documentary shoots, I want to go as low profile as possible. So I would remove the Matte box. I don’t want to spook the person by showing a bigger profile of camera lens matte box combo. Once I was shooting a documentary for a broadcaster and found an athlete crying as she got the Gold medal in the competition but missed the national mark. When I moved it to shoot her, she got conscious and hid her face. There have been several such cases where I lost some very interesting moments as the persons got spooked by bigger camera profile. So I am very excited with this compact size of R5C for many different shooting scenarios.

I find the ability to record .wav files into the SD cards a very interesting feature. If the microphone is properly placed, then the sound is recorded well in .wav format which we are used to. It is a big deal in many situations. In corporate shoots often clients don't want to spend more for a separate sound mixer dude.

People here are raising so many issues that I wonder whether they shot during the DSLR revolution or not. People have forgotten the stuff they used to do for the ML hack. Plugging in a USB power to get 8K 60p is no big deal in comparison. In my wildlife shoots, I need to be careful not to drop it from my pocket. In other shoots, it should be manageable. Because of the space constraints, I don't expect people to continuously shoot in 8K60p. However, you never know. As I was watching a chess channel, and the guy said he is redoing a chess match explanation video in 1080 50p as 50p is just so much better. Given that R5C records sound at 4K 120p, I guess someone will record such a talking head in 120p as well. You never know. :kali:

For wildlife/sports/special action shots the ability to record sound at 4K 120p would be of help.

For a shoot a client wanted two same cameras. And at that time C70 didn't have raw. Also, I want built-in EVF in any camera. So even with raw mode via firmware upgrade, C70 doesn’t work for me. I will be buying the R5C. And will pair it off with other cinema cameras as required. I am sure C500 type camera in RF mount or higher would be launched later this year.

Also thought I would like to remind people that, a producer throwing lot of money will more likely reject a DP suggesting shoot with R5C. The psychology of pricing will not allow some people to accept lower priced items. In the initial days of DSLR revolution a lot of people simply put on ton of nonsense cage and cables simply to impress clients. A tiny barebones R5C may not impress some people and you may get branded as a wannabe DP.

If you are shooting for a big budget production where money is not an issue, you will get all the Alexa’s of the world. Except for couple of guys here, I am not sure if anyone shoots such kinds of projects. So talk about shooting Lawrence of Arabia with a R5C is moot. Having said that, too often people focus on the IQ of the camera. 99.9% of the time they forget that the IQ one inch behind the camera is even more important.

It is up to the creativity of the person to understand the strengths of a camera and use the camera to further his/her vision. No camera is a magic wand. Big budget doesn’t mean that you have to always shoot with an Alexa for every shot. R5C will find its way as additional cameras. For smaller budgets I am pretty sure R5C will be used a lot. Lets see what we are able to create. This f***ing pandemic has
tied us indoors for too long. Hopefully we can do some good amount of shooting this year.

 

[Guest]

Agreed. IBIS on Canon for video is not very good at all. I have the R6 and its nice for static shots and slow careful movements. Absolutely no gimbal replacement at all. I wouldn't consider the lack of IBIS on the R5c a devastating loss. Most would end up using a gimbal anyway.

I’d assume IBIS is not to replace the gimbal, but to allow handheld static shots and slow pans?

And yes, lack of IBIS is not devastating to people who use gimbals or rigging, but for those that like to have a simple small setup, it kind of is devastating, because it means they have to add something to their setup. But i doubt it will prevent the R5C from selling well, but which of us cares about that?

 

[Guest]

Im not saying I have 100% approval of the uk drama/arri strong hold. Id like to see some cheaper kit (C200/300/500) and better wages for the crew.

+1

 

[Guest]

What is that clinking sound when i turn off my dvx100?

we’ve been using image stab on video for over a quarter century.

 

[ahalpert]

I’d assume IBIS is not to replace the gimbal, but to allow handheld static shots and slow pans?

t?

In the proAV ibis test video, there was a section of walking with talent with barehand camera, which is why the subject came up.

Personally, I like adding ibis on top of gimbal. It helps smooth over some of the robotic movements of the unit and any bumps or jiggles you might have. I don't think it interferes with your shot because you're already shooting smoothly and it just kind of follows along. The gh5 and S1 performed better in these regards than my a7siii but not by a devastating amount. I don't see it as ibis or gimbal, I see it as ibis plus gimbal

 

[Guest]

In the proAV ibis test video, there was a section of walking with talent with barehand camera, which is why the subject came up.

Personally, I like adding ibis on top of gimbal. It helps smooth over some of the robotic movements of the unit and any bumps or jiggles you might have. I don't think it interferes with your shot because you're already shooting smoothly and it just kind of follows along. The gh5 and S1 performed better in these regards than my a7siii but not by a devastating amount. I don't see it as ibis or gimbal, I see it as ibis plus gimbal

That is an intelligent approach.


All stability and fluid motion is good for video.

the thing is simple for handheld especially, if you have more weight, you have more inertia and less jitters, a larger size also balances fairly easy

but if you want a camera with less weight, and smaller, than you have very little inertia, much more jitter and because the size is so small, optimal balance can be difficult.

So, IBIS is the alternative to weight ans size and balance, since ultra small cameras inherently have that issue.

 

[icarusfilm]

good Ibis will eliminate the a lot but not all reasons to use a Gimbal. Good Ibis mimics to my eye the work of a very smooth handheld operator. which is what I usually want as I am a Documentary DP and Director. I find gimbal shots can make things look too smooth and somehow boring Gimbals have been a blessing because they kind of eliminated sliders (those things really suck). for big weeping shots I find Drones more useful. Im very happy that Gimbals are used so widely today because clients have actually stopped asking for them because their novelty has waned.
The key for good IBIS performance is to keep the camera built as close to a "ball" as possible physically small lenses (I use leica primes) instead of a tower of XLR adapters and receivers + boom mics simply a TimeCode generator and Audio separate.

I’d assume IBIS is not to replace the gimbal, but to allow handheld static shots and slow pans?

And yes, lack of IBIS is not devastating to people who use gimbals or rigging, but for those that like to have a simple small setup, it kind of is devastating, because it means they have to add something to their setup. But i doubt it will prevent the R5C from selling well, but which of us cares about that?

 

[Guest]

good Ibis will eliminate the a lot but not all reasons to use a Gimbal. Good Ibis mimics to my eye the work of a very smooth handheld operator. which is what I usually want as I am a Documentary DP and Director. I find gimbal shots can make things look too smooth and somehow boring Gimbals have been a blessing because they kind of eliminated sliders (those things really suck). for big weeping shots I find Drones more useful. Im very happy that Gimbals are used so widely today because clients have actually stopped asking for them because their novelty has waned.
The key for good IBIS performance is to keep the camera built as close to a "ball" as possible physically small lenses (I use leica primes) instead of a tower of XLR adapters and receivers + boom mics simply a TimeCode generator and Audio separate.

i mentioned to Abe earlier, IBIS is the modern day gate weave. haha.


that’s good advice, i’ll try it out. Also, the more stuff i add to a rig, the less i need IBIS, due to mass and inertia and balance, which is why i’ve never needed IBIS much before. However, we have plenty of cine cameras with a fix sensor, and we don’t have any with IBIS, so i think it is time, and the R5C missed out a little there. I’m just hoping Canon doesn’t make that mistake again. but could be 4years from now with their road maps.

This is what Hitchcock felt like waiting for colour film to be invented.

 

[icarusfilm]

the nice thing about the Panasonics be it the S1 or the s1H (but not the s5)is that the body's have a heft to them I actually add a battery grip to increase that heft and also to give me more ways to hold the unit. essentially the closer the sensor is to the central point of gravity the smoother the whole thing gets.

i mentioned to Abe earlier, IBIS is the modern day gate weave. haha.


that’s good advice, i’ll try it out. Also, the more stuff i add to a rig, the less i need IBIS, due to mass and inertia and balance, which is why i’ve never needed IBIS much before. However, we have plenty of cine cameras with a fix sensor, and we don’t have any with IBIS, so i think it is time, and the R5C missed out a little there. I’m just hoping Canon doesn’t make that mistake again. but could be 4years from now with their road maps.

This is what Hitchcock felt like waiting for colour film to be invented.

 

[Guest]

the nice thing about the Panasonics be it the S1 or the s1H (but not the s5)is that the body's have a heft to them I actually add a battery grip to increase that heft and also to give me more ways to hold the unit. essentially the closer the sensor is to the central point of gravity the smoother the whole thing gets.

I only demo’s the Panny’s briefly, they had a nice feel. the EVF and the subtle yet reassuring heft was nice. I like that about the old 1DC and now the C70, but can get fatiguing. which is why i am interested in IBIS and then a lighter body like A7 or R5.


Panasonic quietly made the S1H and BS1H, and i think that duo is fantastic.

- S1H makes mirrorless almost feel cinematic.
- BS1H is a box, fix sensor, modular, easy to rig, BNC


Sony has the A7S3, FX3, FX6, and there is an experience from those three that can sort of encompass:
- A7 mirrorless convenience and compactness
- FX3 rigging and action cam and alt angle
- FX6 more feature video cam.

If Sony had made the FX6 just a little more pro featured, that trio would have been a total win. but is still a great trio. The FX6 just feels under powered for bigger work, and the gap between it and the Venice is huge.


But Canon with the R5 and R5C are pretty different.

in 4K they are both solid performers but if not paired with a C3003 or C5002, they don’t really stand out, imho.

in 8K they become a mixed bag, but also 8K with Canon colour. nothing to really hate there.

in 8K:
- R5 overheats, no internal raw
- R5C no IBIS but all the mirrorless issues and form factor

so you have two mirrorless cameras using the same sensor, but each having an omission. But niether compliments the other as well as the Panasonic and Sony variants.

Seems like if they want to commit to the “Cine” version, they should take one of two approaches:
1. Keep the sensor but make the body more of a brain box for modularity and fix the sensor, and add bnc or ND etc

or

2. Keep all of the mirrorless features, but add the internal raw and log and extra video frame rates. adding additional cooling is a nice touch. Because at least this way it has everything people love about mirrorless, just improves the video quality.

But i think Canon was a little lost. they’ll be fine, but i think they constantly make these kinds of missteps. But they put out a ton of cameras, so if you don’t like one thing they have something else that might work. haha

 

[Guest]

I’m still highly intrigued by the R5C as a documentary camera. if you need to record important events right now, er… right in April after the backorder, it is unique at this price point.

As we’ve all chatted back amd forth, and learning of Canon’s update, the C70 comes back around as perhaps the better option for me. ND and XLR and then just fix a tiny MKH8050 up top and get to work. The raw option really nudges the C70 into something compelling. Judging the C3003 footage i tested, the image is good. Up there with F55/Komodo etc, and just behind the Cinema champs like Gemini, Monstro, Venice, Alexa.

I thought I’d have figured it out by now, but my project is still up in the air. once i get it more clearly defined, the camera choice will be easy. Might circle back to an A7s3, as i love the freedom of that camera. great dynamic range, robust codec, and clean clean clean. And the DR numbers on the S1H and that EVF have my eye too. Then there are all the used options.

but that drum: internal 8K raw… 8K raw… 8K raw…

i have a hard time resisting that.

 

[DLD]

FWIW, there are rumors about the more cinema looking cinema cameras from Canon Cinema. Most are expected to be 8K but some might be (heavily oversampled) 4K too.

 

[ahalpert]

good Ibis will eliminate the a lot but not all reasons to use a Gimbal. Good Ibis mimics to my eye the work of a very smooth handheld operator. which is what I usually want as I am a Documentary DP and Director. I find gimbal shots can make things look too smooth and somehow boring

Little demand for the handheld look among my clients. Obviously it's a wildly popular shooting style. But most of my clientele aim for stately, or at least steady. Handheld in those contexts is only about speed and mobility, which I can do with greater steadiness on gimbal. I look at the gimbal as a dolly replacement, or at least that's the goal

I also shoot static shots at least half the time while I'm on gimbal. More like a monopod. For that, ibis isn't very necessary on top of the gimbal itself. But still useful at 200mm.

Then there's the camera height range advantage. I'm surprised more people don't talk about this. One of my favorie rigs these days is 80" monopod + weebill-s + fx3. Gimbal head auto horizon level, I can get perfectly steady shots up to 80" above arm level, with camera movement if so desired, or low-angle down to the floor. Invert the camera by swinging the pole around, it's very fast and it'd be difficult to get the sensor any closer to the floor considering the fx3 has no evf. Short camera. Or you're holding it way out over somewhere you can't stand

 

[ahalpert]

FWIW, there are rumors about the more cinema looking cinema cameras from Canon Cinema. Most are expected to be 8K but some might be (heavily oversampled) 4K too.

No oversampled 4K cameras rumored on canonrumors. 8k s35, 8k ff, and 4k ff WDR with huge pixels and super fast readout

 

[Guest]

Little demand for the handheld look among my clients. Obviously it's a wildly popular shooting style. But most of my clientele aim for stately, or at least steady. Handheld in those contexts is only about speed and mobility, which I can do with greater steadiness on gimbal. I look at the gimbal as a dolly replacement, or at least that's the goal

I also shoot static shots at least half the time while I'm on gimbal. More like a monopod. For that, ibis isn't very necessary on top of the gimbal itself. But still useful at 200mm.

Then there's the camera height range advantage. I'm surprised more people don't talk about this. One of my favorie rigs these days is 80" monopod + weebill-s + fx3. Gimbal head auto horizon level, I can get perfectly steady shots up to 80" above arm level, with camera movement if so desired, or low-angle down to the floor. Invert the camera by swinging the pole around, it's very fast and it'd be difficult to get the sensor any closer to the floor considering the fx3 has no evf. Short camera. Or you're holding it way out over somewhere you can't stand

You always come up with something interesting. Always appreciate your thoughts on technique.

The monopod with gimbal+IBIS is genius. You basically have 3+5 axis stabilization on an jib arm is how you have to say it to appeal to the industry folk. If you called it a Libra 8, it might sound serious. Panavision Cobra 8 or something. (like the Love Bug, 5+3=8) on second thought, occasionally the monopod is also an additional stabilizer, so perhaps the 8.1, or the 9.

Yeah, handheld is the worst, but we’ve all known it to be the only way sometimes, and other times it is the best. and i am not talking about the “style” of it. The style is kind of it’s own sub genre thing. The necessity of it has been with us for the 100 or so years of motion picture cameras.

When i first started using DSLR, on a really small experimental short film i was doing, i added literal exercise weights to the rig to make it more stable. Now, if IBIS could make that easier, i’d be all for it. i think i added 10 or 15lbs to the rig in dead weight. And anytime i rig a new camera for work, i spend an extra day figuring out effecient ways to make it balanced to make more stable shoulder work. But i don’t like long days of shoulder work or handheld, i’ve seen too many people mess up their spine and suffer.

If it is between carpal tunnel and spine injuries or IBIS, i’ll take IBIS.