CineForm

coolguy007

coolguy007

Active member
Has anyone tried using CineForm Aspect HD (Basically it is an alternative to Raylight) Ther is a 15 day trial i think at the website, anyone who has tried it do you like it more than raylight? (Im currently using raylight)
Update* here is the website in case anyone wanted to check it out, seems pretty cool to me...supposedly has better quality than raylight www.cineform.com
 
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Raylight and CineForm products can co-exist and often will as there are plently DVFilm customers who use CineForm Products and vice-versa. So you are welcome to trial the download for yourself with no risk to Raylight.

P.S. Thanks for using the uppercase 'F' in CineForm, so many don't bother, yet you are totally correct. Thanks again :)
 
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Yes, works much smoother than Raylight! And it has lots of conversion options and works with the HVX200. I have a videocard issue so if I make the image too large it plays back with a few stutters but smaller screens and it plays very nicely. I haven't tried compositing with it yet, and I'm not even sure if I am using it totally right yet. Using a 2.8 Ghz 1 Gig memory P4.
 
David:

I'm really embarrassed to say this but....

Howdya get cineform to work? It's installed with Premiere but I can't seem to find instructions on how to load mxf footage and all that.

Hopefully I can give feedback before my trial ends....
 
David, I am about to buy the hvx, how Can I get PHD working with the p2 stuff?

Or can I buy a Silicon Imaging system right now? even a beta unit would be fine with me! I hate the HVX but see no other camera at this point in time to buy for a job we have coming up, the hd100u is a TOTAL JOKE with it's cell phone camera level of compression on the tape!
 
David, how are black levels from the HVX MXF's handled in the CineForm file?

Will black (assuming 8bit) translate as RGB (0,0,0) or have setup added to give approx (15,15,15)?

In my tests for choosing a codec for the PC, Raylight and Edius Broadcast both add setup, which I think is wrong to automatically add.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
I really hate beta programs, and would rather take the advice from others who like beta programs. That being said,

Can you use this to transfer and convert mxf files from a P2 store to AVI files on a removable drive?

Since I have to move the files anyway, maybe this will be the best way for me to do so.

Do the resulting avi files, need the original mxf files to function, or is this new AVI file not tied in any way to the source files? (can i deleate the mxf files and folders after I have my new single avi file? After the transfer from P2 store, can I format the P2 store?


Can I batch capture all the mxf files on the P2 store?

What are the disadvantages? Is it slow in premiere like RayLight?

Raylight might be worth the $200, but it wasn't for me.
I don't feel ripped off from ray light, but I do feel like I threw away $200
because it is too slow to realistically be usable for me.


If this is fast, then it might be what I am looking for.

Do these resulting AVI files move, edit and display like Standard DV?
That's what I am looking for, the speed of standard dv editing with avi's.

Canopus broadcast is fast and can do this, but for storage simplicity reasons,
the features of premiere, I'd much rather be editing with premiere, and saving files as self contained avi's. I can write my meta data on a notepad :-)
 
obin,

Prospect HD is about to be updated to HXV200 support. So whenever you need it will be ready. We did all our internal test for MXF support using Prospect HD. The same release will also support CineForm RAW as used form the Silicon Imaging camera -- I believe there is available for the head only version of the camera, with the full camera shipping in September. Check out indiefilmlive.blogspot.com as they are using one of each.
 
Jim Arthurs said:
David, how are black levels from the HVX MXF's handled in the CineForm file?

Will black (assuming 8bit) translate as RGB (0,0,0) or have setup added to give approx (15,15,15)?
Click to expand...

Jim, Black level is handled correctly as the conversion never changes colorspace. YUV data out of the DVCPRO_HD decoder is feed directly into the CineForm encoder. No shadow or highlight detail is lost, you have a visual lossless result that is make faster and better for multigeneration editing.
 
Green Hornet said:
1. Can you use this to transfer and convert mxf files from a P2 store to AVI files on a removable drive?

2. Do the resulting avi files, need the original mxf files to function, or is this new AVI file not tied in any way to the source files? (can i deleate the mxf files and folders after I have my new single avi file? After the transfer from P2 store, can I format the P2 store?

3. Can I batch capture all the mxf files on the P2 store?

4. What are the disadvantages? Is it slow in premiere like RayLight?
If this is fast, then it might be what I am looking for.

.... I'd much rather be editing with premiere, and saving files as self contained avi's. I can write my meta data on a notepad :-)
Click to expand...


I numbered your questions.

1) Yes, there are no restictions where you convert from or two. From P2 media to thumb drive if you like, or copu your MXF files to a hard drive for later conversion. It is flexible.

2) The resulting AVIs are standalone, no MXF file is needed for later processing. Note: As an AVI an only stores stereo PCM, we also produce a WAV file for channels 3 and 4. So the complex P2 directory structure for each shot is simplified to a AVI and WAV file.

3) Not so much "Capture", but yes you can batch convert a directory of MXF files into their equivalent AVIs.

4) No disadvantages, and yes significantly faster -- that is what CineForm in known for.
 
Ok well i have been working with CineForm for about a day now and it seems a whole heck of lot faster (actually i know it is) but David one problem i am having is that when i slowed down some footage i shot (1080i 60i) it seemed very "jumpy" is this me? should i have been using 720pn at 60pn or what?, thanks a bunch
 
If it was shoot 60i, to slow that down you should use After Effects to do a field based slow-motion interpolation. But, yes for this camera it is much better to use the 720p overcrank mode to generate slowmotion. HDLink can upres to 1080 is you wish to mix 1080p24 with 720p slowmotion.
 
Okay, spent the afternoon testing both ConnectHD and Raylight, trying to decide who gets 'ma $200. :) Here's what I've got... anyone feel free to jump in:

CineForm and Raylight (the good and bad)

-Cineform handles blacks correctly in the RGB conversion. Tested this and clips load in with black being 0,0,0 unlike Raylight or the codec in Edius Broadcast.

-Cinefom has faster, higher quality preview playback in Vegas. Strangely, slower actual render times than Raylight by about 33%. All things were equal in the testing, including project aspect ratios and frame sizes.

-Quick conversion of files to CineForm AVI's. No more messy than making the unwrapped QT on the Mac for FCP users. Raylight conversion were equally quick, but you need to keep all the directories and support files around, of course.

-No DVCPRO 50 support in CineForm. Big advantage for Raylight. Common, I know the focus is HD, but pretty please... this could be a deal-breaker to some.

-One thing I like in ConnectHD... taking your HVX 1080 footage and "resizing" it to CineForm full raster 1280 by 720p. If there's a tiny bit more horizontal resolution when recording 1080p with the HVX, then this will let you keep it and still work with 720p. Best of both worlds.

-CineForm problem... when loading codec sized 990 by 720 conversions, Vegas 5.0 gives them square pixel aspect ratio by default. Raylight problem... Vegas 5.0 and AE report 24fps instead of 23.976.

-CineForm AVI's seem to key almost as well as the DVCPRO originals under my demanding critical eye (at least the downsampled from 1080 ones). Raylight has a bit of an edge here, IMO, as it isn't adding its own compression scheme to the mix, just a decoding of the DVCPRO codec.

Bottom line, advantages and dis-advantages to both, IMO. I'm only buying one, but I think the time = money I spent testing both would have been better spent earning and just buying both of them. :)

Your mileage may vary...

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim Arthurs said:
-Cineform handles blacks correctly in the RGB conversion. Tested this and clips load in with black being 0,0,0 unlike Raylight or the codec in Edius Broadcast.

-
Jim Arthurs
Click to expand...

Jim:

How did you test for the black?

I'm generally satisfied with Edius (trial) and I'm surprised to find that the black ain't really black.


Thanks
 
stabwound said:
Jim:

How did you test for the black?

I'm generally satisfied with Edius (trial) and I'm surprised to find that the black ain't really black.


Thanks
Click to expand...

Export an image sequence from Edius, then load a frame or the sequence into Photoshop or AE and check spot info. Or, throw a levels adjustment on it and see that the lowest value of a black area in the image is around 15,15,15 RGB.

... maybe there's a toggle somewhere to adjust or remove setup from exports, I sure don't know the program after an afternoon of messing with it enough to know... All I know is that an image sequence has setup burned into it, and that's an immediate loss. I think the levels are correct when viewed internally on the waveform, but something is happening on export.

I agree that the program has terrific MXF support and playback speed is great. However, I move my shots around from program to program and need more of a universal codec than just being able to work with my Panny footage in one single NLE package...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim Arthurs said:
-No DVCPRO 50 support in CineForm. Big advantage for Raylight. Common, I know the focus is HD, but pretty please... this could be a deal-breaker to some.
Click to expand...

Have you confirmed this? We don't promote the support as we haven't tested it, but it should work (if you don't use the scalers.)
 
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Jim Arthurs said:
Cinefom has faster, higher quality preview playback in Vegas.
Click to expand...

It is 2-3X faster again in Premiere Pro as Aspect HD includes acceleratored YUV 4:2:2 video pipeline (Vegas is an RGB only tool which slows it down a bit.)
 
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