Brian@202020
Veteran
I'm having the boys down at Cinequipt collimate it for me later today or tomorrow. They have the shims and tools. I'll let you know how it goes.
Ciecio7 PL mount question.
- Thread starter Brian@202020
- Start date
I'm having the boys down at Cinequipt collimate it for me later today or tomorrow. They have the shims and tools. I'll let you know how it goes.
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Something about the lack of support directly on the mount that scares me about the 'FunkyKoval'. I think even my lightest PL mount lens will need extra support - even if just for my own piece of mind.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, my complaints about the ciecio7 adapter were basically centered on these three things:
1) the support foot wasn't perpendicular, rendering the socket on it pointless
2) the focus is off on my PL lenses
3) it isn't shimmable to correct 2.
Of course, if the focus was perfectly "on", I wouldn't care about shimming, so I did separate those three things out.
After a little eye-opening by our friend heavyG, I went and dug up a 0.5mm allen wrench and started some experimentation. Yes indeed you can loosen the back collar mount and rotate it so that the support foot is perfectly perpendicular. So that's #1 solved.
But, as he mentioned, you can loosen it up enough to actually remove the back collar, and ... well, there just might be a way to shim it somehow. Being as it is nigh unto midnight, and having no lens service facility in my town, real shimming is not an option at this time, but I figured I'd play with it a bit just to see what, if anything, was possible. Set up a focus/res chart, and my monitor in 1:1 pixel mode, put on the 85mm CP at wide-open, tape-measured the distance, the whole deal. After determining it was off, I then scrounged up some aluminum foil and attempted to make a shim, just to see what would happen -- obviously I couldn't get it right, as there are so many shim sizes because this is a precise job, but ... eh, like the 3D lens, sometimes you just gotta play around with stuff and see what happens. I did get a small shim constructed and inserted it between the rear collar and the main mount and then tightened it all down, and it did seem to make a bit of difference. At 4', focus was off by maybe an inch, and at 12' it was off by maybe a foot. That's better than it was, but still off. Might even be good enough, at f2.8, but I was measuring at f/1.5.
So, I guess it's possible, if you had more patience than Job, and a collimator, and a set of real shims that would actually fit the back collar, you could probably get it to work out.
Frankly I don't have the proper tools, the proper shims, or the guaranteed expertise to pull this off, nor do I really think it makes all that much sense to throw that much effort and eventually, when I have to give up and send it to Abel to get them to do it, I don't think the expense would really be all that worth it; it's gonna get to the point where you're throwing too much money and time after a product that's not fundamentally designed to do that job (hmm, sound familiar?) but for those who simply don't have any other choice, and who do have the time to experiment with it, it may indeed be possible.
1) the support foot wasn't perpendicular, rendering the socket on it pointless
2) the focus is off on my PL lenses
3) it isn't shimmable to correct 2.
Of course, if the focus was perfectly "on", I wouldn't care about shimming, so I did separate those three things out.
After a little eye-opening by our friend heavyG, I went and dug up a 0.5mm allen wrench and started some experimentation. Yes indeed you can loosen the back collar mount and rotate it so that the support foot is perfectly perpendicular. So that's #1 solved.
But, as he mentioned, you can loosen it up enough to actually remove the back collar, and ... well, there just might be a way to shim it somehow. Being as it is nigh unto midnight, and having no lens service facility in my town, real shimming is not an option at this time, but I figured I'd play with it a bit just to see what, if anything, was possible. Set up a focus/res chart, and my monitor in 1:1 pixel mode, put on the 85mm CP at wide-open, tape-measured the distance, the whole deal. After determining it was off, I then scrounged up some aluminum foil and attempted to make a shim, just to see what would happen -- obviously I couldn't get it right, as there are so many shim sizes because this is a precise job, but ... eh, like the 3D lens, sometimes you just gotta play around with stuff and see what happens. I did get a small shim constructed and inserted it between the rear collar and the main mount and then tightened it all down, and it did seem to make a bit of difference. At 4', focus was off by maybe an inch, and at 12' it was off by maybe a foot. That's better than it was, but still off. Might even be good enough, at f2.8, but I was measuring at f/1.5.
So, I guess it's possible, if you had more patience than Job, and a collimator, and a set of real shims that would actually fit the back collar, you could probably get it to work out.
Frankly I don't have the proper tools, the proper shims, or the guaranteed expertise to pull this off, nor do I really think it makes all that much sense to throw that much effort and eventually, when I have to give up and send it to Abel to get them to do it, I don't think the expense would really be all that worth it; it's gonna get to the point where you're throwing too much money and time after a product that's not fundamentally designed to do that job (hmm, sound familiar?) but for those who simply don't have any other choice, and who do have the time to experiment with it, it may indeed be possible.
astigmatic
Well-known member
cool, I have more than enough time and I love to DIY. 1500 bucks saved : )
Illya Friedman
Well-known member
For you DIYers who want to try the going back and forth of making this work, be forewarned. I've been contacted by several people who have broken their ebay mount, and/or damaged their camera by going down this path. I know, because I get the calls from people generally right after the "uh oh" moment, some have even sent me their non-functioning cheap-o mounts, even though I won't fix them.
If you don't have a proper plum shimmable plane, and a proper bolt arranged in a way to apply even and sufficent torque you will likely end up with a split focal plane which is far worse then your marks being off. This is an excellent way to make a master prime look like a zoom lens built in the early 1960s, or ruin your project as you may not notice until you see the image on a big screen.
If this doesn't dissuade you, and you still want to try to DIY it, to get a better idea of how far off you mount really is, use a fast wide angle lens (somewhere around 20mm and T1.3 if you've got it) longer lenses are less critical, and when you get too telephoto (or too slow) with your "test" lens, you may not even notice that you are out of alignment. Then when you have to open up all the way for something critical, your marks will be NG.
If you don't have a proper plum shimmable plane, and a proper bolt arranged in a way to apply even and sufficent torque you will likely end up with a split focal plane which is far worse then your marks being off. This is an excellent way to make a master prime look like a zoom lens built in the early 1960s, or ruin your project as you may not notice until you see the image on a big screen.
If this doesn't dissuade you, and you still want to try to DIY it, to get a better idea of how far off you mount really is, use a fast wide angle lens (somewhere around 20mm and T1.3 if you've got it) longer lenses are less critical, and when you get too telephoto (or too slow) with your "test" lens, you may not even notice that you are out of alignment. Then when you have to open up all the way for something critical, your marks will be NG.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yeah, that's why I was saying -- not worth the effort, at least for me. If someone wants to spend the time, hey, to each his own, but if I want complete precision I think I'll just buy the tool that's made for that job. Then again, I can well understand those who can't afford the right tool, wanting to press the less-expensive product into doing the job they need done.
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Purchased the Ciecio7 as a low cost short term solution to use for the first couple of months while the more 'Pro' adapters where ironed out before they came to market… Cameras haven't arrived yet, and there are already a couple of great adapters available.
The Ciecio7's may never get used, if the current shipping rumours for Canada are true.
The Ciecio7's may never get used, if the current shipping rumours for Canada are true.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Pretty much my reasoning too. There's an adapter on the drawing boards that looks incredibly promising, but I've said too much already. In the meantime, I have my Ciecio, which can always be used on the GH2 if I decide to step up to the Hot Rod or wait for one of the others.
Don't get me wrong, the Ciecio does work, and "A Verse Before Dying" is proof. It just didn't let us use the lenses as they were truly intended (meaning, focusing by marks) and if we'd had a PL zoom, that would have been troublesome. If I was using a PL zoom, I would have used the HotRod, no questions at all. Haven't seen the Denz or MTF or FunkyKoval.
Brian@202020
Veteran
Just got back from Cinequipt. The shims for Zeiss lenses fit the Ciecio7 PL adapter perfectly. It's like they were made to go together. I was told the shims actually fit on the Ciecio7 adapter better than they do on some Zeiss lenses and that's what they were made for. Anyway after about 30 minutes of messing around the .076 shim was dead on for my AF100/Ciecio7 combination. I tested it on the widest Zeiss and Cooke lenses they had as well as some zooms to make sure it holds focus thu the zoom range. The AF100 looks pretty awesome with the Cooke S4's on it let me tell you. Anyway so there you have it, the Ciecio7 PL mount is indead shimable and it seams as tho it was actually made to be shimmable.
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Great to know.
I guess I'll give it a try when the time comes.
Thanks for taking the time to do some testing.
G.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, heck -- a little firsthand experience beats a lot of speculation. So how much shimming did it take to get it right? Just the one?
Brian@202020
Veteran
In the end there is only one shim currently in my Ciecio7, but I did try others first. 2 thinner ones. The .076 proved to be the right one for my combination.
Barry_Green
Moderator
And you are, presumably, content with the way the mount went back together, and have no concerns about its ruggedness? I felt a little bit of concern with those 0.5mm allen bolts, because tightening them up was causing the allen wrench to twist about 360 degrees! But yeah, now you have me wanting to order a set of shims and give it a go. (the aluminum foil thing, yeah, that's not gonna work!)
astigmatic
Well-known member
oh wow, where does one buy these shims?
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Direct from the Zeiss website.
Brian@202020
Veteran
Well it seems solid enough. It didn't really change anything from the original design. I mean putting the shim in there didn't make it weaker in any way. As for the small hex bolts, The way it's designed once you take it off you'll see how it automatically tightens itself on the shim. The hex heads tighten on an angled surface so it pulls the two parts together pinching the shim in place. It's hard to explain. Take it apart and you'll get what I'm trying to say. But as a whole I think it looks and feels pretty solid. I was a welder and machinist for 10 years before I decided to become a Cinematographer and to me it seems pretty solid.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yeah, I had taken it apart and seen how it works, I was just a little concerned that if the shim was too thick it might not seat properly, and when you're hanging an $80,000 lens off the front (or even my Compact Primes) you really, really want to know that it's solid.
Well, glad it's working out for you. Now let me send you fifty bucks and have you shim mine! :evil:
Did Cinequipt provide a collimator to use, or are you just testing by tape-measuring to the marks?
Well, glad it's working out for you. Now let me send you fifty bucks and have you shim mine! :evil:
Did Cinequipt provide a collimator to use, or are you just testing by tape-measuring to the marks?
Brian@202020
Veteran
We did throw it on the bench and collimate it as well as the tape measure route. I think it's like $105 an hour to Collimate plus the cost of the shim (which was $10), so you were pretty close on the $50 since I only did 30 minutes. I was told that every camera is slightly different and you should have your mount collimated on your camera to ensure perfection.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, regarding the shims that actually fit -- were they the Compact Primes CP.2 shims?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/735723-REG/Zeiss_1853_634_Colored_Shims_Set_of.html
Can you ask CineQuipt for the exact type that you got? There are shims for all sorts of lenses out there, and we should let folks know which ones fit the diameter of the Ciecio7 mount appropriately.
For those wanting to see a bit of the process of what you go through when shimming a mount, look at this PDF:
http://www.bfm.ee/web/data/www_files/facilities/manuals/MountChangeInstructionsCP2_EN.pdf
That's not exactly the same; that's shimming each lens to a fixed PL mount (because sometimes your mount is off, and sometimes your lens is off, and you really really have to know that your mount is accurate or else you'll end up going in circles!) What we've been discussing here is shimming the mount to get it to the exact distance that it should be. You may, thereafter, have to shim your lenses too; most lenses from a qualified and competent rental house should come pre-shimmed so as long as your mount is good, you should be good to go.
Thanks for the legwork, Brian!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/735723-REG/Zeiss_1853_634_Colored_Shims_Set_of.html
Can you ask CineQuipt for the exact type that you got? There are shims for all sorts of lenses out there, and we should let folks know which ones fit the diameter of the Ciecio7 mount appropriately.
For those wanting to see a bit of the process of what you go through when shimming a mount, look at this PDF:
http://www.bfm.ee/web/data/www_files/facilities/manuals/MountChangeInstructionsCP2_EN.pdf
That's not exactly the same; that's shimming each lens to a fixed PL mount (because sometimes your mount is off, and sometimes your lens is off, and you really really have to know that your mount is accurate or else you'll end up going in circles!) What we've been discussing here is shimming the mount to get it to the exact distance that it should be. You may, thereafter, have to shim your lenses too; most lenses from a qualified and competent rental house should come pre-shimmed so as long as your mount is good, you should be good to go.
Thanks for the legwork, Brian!