choosing a stabilizer

I can give no advice on Flyer v. Glidecam SS as I know none of them. However, regarding this :
powerdog said:
assuming a camera of the DVX100's weight, what are the factors in deciding between a handheld and a vest-equipped stabilizer?
Click to expand...
I'd say the main factors are (1) how muscular your camera arm and shoulder are, and (2) how long you plan on holding your stabilizer for.

If you're in average physical condition (i.e., you play tennis once or twice a month v. lift weights thrice a week), you can contemplate using a handheld stab for a few minutes (significantly less than 10, IMO). After that, it will become tiring and uncomfortable and it will show in the edit suite.

I've had both types, handheld and vest, and from my personal viewpoint only (I underline this), it is *absolutely* worth waiting to buy a vest-type if you don't have the money right now. Or else, buy a handheld but plan on reselling it (at a loss) when you get a "real" one.
 
Thanks. I have lousy joints that ache quickly. I guess a vest is the only way to go.

What about the other question, where you gain from the Steadicam vs Glidecam.
 
Handheld rigs also have their benefits.
First and foremst, they are much more flexible. You can run-n-gun just fine with a handheld rig, much more so than with a full body mounted rig. You can also do fancy stuff like operting in smaller spaces or passing the rig to other people (through a window maybe?). Also a handheld rig is not tied directly to the balance of the operator, so you can use it in more situations: bike riding, skating, etc..

But yes, there is the weight that will limit your operating time. For narative work a handheld will work great (a pefect match for P2 workflow! when the card is full, you get a break). Notice some handheld rigs are more comfterble to hold than others. The Steadicam JR & Merlin, "arc" style handhelds put the CG above your hand, so you are holding the weight normally. The Glidecam, "post", type rigs that are jsut scaled down versions of big rigs place the CG to the side of your hand, which will place tourque on your wrist and hurt more and sooner. Of course the empty wieght of the rig and the amount of counterweights required will also be a major factor.

Then the vest systems.
The arm's job is to carry the sled (bit with the camera/gimble/monitor) so you don't have to. The vest of course just ties the arm to your body.
The more flexible the arm, the more you can do with the sled. So natrually a double section arm (like the Flyer) has a huge advantage over a single section arm (like the Smooth Shooter) when it comes to flexibility and isolation.
If all you are doing is slow "walk-n-talks" then a SS would work fine. But as soon as you start moving more eratcally (like any running) or even just switching around the rig, the added isolation of the 2nd section becomes necessary.

Which for the DVX? it all depens on what you are shooting and how much. Short indy shooting where you might come across the need for a steadicam shot, get a handheld. lots of steadicam shooting, you'll want a full rig.

As for where you see the difference. Both. You can feel the effects of the rig on the shot when you are shooting. Once you hit the restirctions of a rig (like limited boom range of a single section arm) it will limit what you can do with your shot. Thoguh the audience probably won't notice they missed something (unless it's bouncing all over the place because you decided to run anyway), it might not allow you to do what you want as a cinematographer.

A final bit of advice.
As with everything, you get what you pay for. So get the best that you can affort to suit your needs.

- Mikko
 
Thanks!

I 've wondered is weight ranges: for example, there's some overlap in what the Glidecam 2000 and 4000 can handle, and I think the DVX's weight would be ok for either. Does one make more sense than the other?

Also, how long does it take, once you arrive at a shoot with your Glidecam/Steadicam +vest all packed up, to put them on and be ready for a shot?
 
I've heard that the 2K gets small if you want to add a much in accesories. But it's much lighter, so for the bare DVX I'd sugest that. If you want to carry more, then get a bigger one. I haven't tried the DVX on both so I can't give an acurate review though. I'd still recomend the Merlin though :)

How long does it take ME? or the average operator?
Set up time varies greatly on the operator and what they have to balance; if it's a camera they are used to and use all the time then much faster than a new camera that needs to be balanced from scratch.
For me, arriving on set with the Flyer, to beeing fully balanced and ready to go is about 10-15mins with most cameras. So I make sure I arrive about 30 mins before I need to be ready to go incase there are supprizes (rare) If i'm going fast I can do it in as little as 5-7mins.

- Mikko
 
I haven't followed this thread in a couple of days so it took me a little time to get back up to speed. As an owner of the Glidecam I find it very difficult to recommend this unit to people because of the balancing issues and the weight associated with it. Prior to purchasing the unit I actually held a 10lb dumbell in my hand and would walk with it. The problem with that is that with a dumbell half the weight is above the hand and half below. With a Glidecam you never have that perfect split of 50/50 with your unit. The amount of stress it puts on your wrist needs to be experienced in order to be understood. I have it, I just don't know how much I like it.

That being said, I debated the 2K vs. 4K. I went with the 4K because when you start to add any accessories the 2K just wont cut it. Furthermore, if you ever plan on adding the Smooth Shooter they recommend making it as heavy as possible to reduce bounce. It is a single arm system and therefor the single arm will move. In order to compensate for this you need to add weight. The GlideCam 2000 is just not going to be able to handle that additional weight.

All of that being said, and as an owner, albeit inexperienced owner of the Glidecam 4K, I really wish I had followed Mikkos advice and gone with the Steadicam Merlin. It is twice the price, but I think it is well worth it.

I love the flyer and drool over it. For me $6000 is just not going to happen for a rig that I A) wont use professionally B) want as an added tool for my indie productions. Those are the facts. I could muster the $3500 for my camera and I have spent that at least in sound. For steadi devices, nope, not going to happen. I have convinced myself that the $1500 for the SmoothShooter is worth it, and that's the route I am going to go.

From my one experience with the smoothshooter in a full balanced rig it works well. Stairs are no problem, walking is no problem, walking fast is no problem, running, there is some bounce. This is with an inexperienced operator.

To get back to the Glidecam, this thing fully loaded is more than 10lbs. I work out and I played baseball in college, my right arm is strong. This thing takes its toll on me after about 3 minutes and come 10 minutes I'm done for a long long time.

All that being equal, here is my honest opinion and honest self reflection. I wanted a stabilizer to open up another dimension to camera movement for my projects. After now owning one and using it, I do not use it as much as I thought I would and do not consider it an ideal tool for my work. Do I still want a Flyer? yes. Do I want a smoothshooter? Yes. Will it replace a tripod? Nope, not even close and I will use the tripod at least 20x more than the stabilizer.

Think about what you are buying before you do, it's a lot of money and sometimes the fantasy of a stabilizer is better than the reality of one.

I will say now, in closing, the same advice that I have offered to people regarding sound... It is easier, more cost effective, and yields higher results to hire or team up with someone than buy the equipement. For a major project I would much more prefer to hire someone like Mikko than invest the money into a smooth shooter and get iffy results.
 
I think your point about the reality being better than the fantasy is well taken. Just because the models in the brochures are smiling doesn't mean I will.

I'm starting to think that the Merlin makes the most sense, especially because of price. If it can't do everything a Flyer can do, it's a lot better than nothing.

About the Merlin:

Can you hold it with upper arm at your side and only forearm extended?

Would it work with a sling around your forearm to bear some of the weight?
 
A sling? now there's an interesting idea. Unfortuanly you need yoru own arm to be flexible to take out the bounce (like the arm on a full rig) Having it ridged (like with a sling) might not be so hot. Definatly worth trying though.
But yes you can hold the Merlin any way you wish :)

Also, do remember, the Merlin won't hold a huge amount of accesories on the DVX either, but it will hold some. But Steadicam operating always has been about stirpping down to the bare 'esentials' anyway to save on weight..

Yankee, VERY good points about "needing" a stabilizer. I fully agree. Just becuse there are suddenly a million different cheap stabilizers available doesn't mean that everyeon should jump on the bandwagon or has to have one to make good movies. They are still a specialist tool as ever, only cheaper so.

- Mikko
 
Too bad they never commercialized the Jetpacks. (Remember the Man From Glad?) You could have one for yourself, one for your camera. There's a REAL fantasy for you! Of course, sound would be an issue.
 
The weight issue on the glidecams is a huge issue. I work out 3 or 4 times a week, targeting 'glidecam muscles'. The thing is still a bear and my arm will start to tremble after a couple of minutes. The real problem is, if you want to get eye level shots you pretty much have to hold your arm straight out. It's hard just holding your arm out with a paperback book let alone 10+ pounds of gear.

Also I don't believe somebody can ever get good at balancing a glide cam. The stupid thing has no adjusting nobs. In order to balance the camera mount you have to unscrew 4 screws and try to tap it ever so lightly to move it in small increments.

Now I'm not saying you can't get smooth shots, I've gotten my share, but I've also gotten some pretty smooth shots with a folded tripod. In some situations I prefer the collapsed tripod stabilizer, it has better weight and is easier to run with.
 
That's an interesting idea. How about a folded tripod with a bit of weight added to the bottom? (I realize I'm probably the last person here to think of this!)
 
im.thatoneguy said:
The weight issue on the glidecams is a huge issue.
Click to expand...


Just noting that such a statement really needs qualifying some, no?
I am speculating you are referring to the 2000 and 4000 series?
GLIDECAM products such as the V16 or now the V25 weigh a lot, but it is not a HUGE ISSUE at all for most operators. And they sure do produce excellent results with some practice.
 
More specifically: the 4000.

Obviously any system with a support arm won't be any work for the average user.

Like I said, it's not that you can't get good results. Compared to the cost of a full rig like an archer it's a hell of a deal. I just won't personally ever purchase a stabilization system without a support arm. The heavier the sled the more isolated your camera will be. This is why I usually find a big beefy aluminum Manfrotto works just as well as a glidecam if only through shear mass... but if a glidecam wears you out a manfrotto... :)

If you want the "glidecam experience". Go grab a dictionairy and run around your house for a while with one arm out.
 
im. -
Not sure how to combine your posts. Are you using the 4000 with a Smooth Shooter (or similar)? I ask because you say it's a bear to hold, but you also say you won't use a stablizer without a supprt arm.
 
I said I wouldn't "purchase" a stab without a support arm.

I've never tried the merlin, apperantly it has spades in "3) perceived lightness" but next time the cash comes up for a stabilization system I'm just going to spend the extra money and get a full system. I'm actually looking at maybe a Basson or Archer this summer.

What I would like to see developed is a two handed glidecam rig. Now that would be an interesting development. It would be half fig rig half glidecam.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
I'm actually looking at maybe a Basson or Archer this summer.
Click to expand...

:shocked: ... Archer, without a doubt. The Basson is junk.

Also, wait for NAB before you decide, there may be some new stuff coming too :thumbsup:

- Mikko
 
The Eagle girl is Hot, and nice camel toe. She makes the VariZoom girl look like a Dog!

I wouldn't buy a Steadi without an arm. Just it is too much up to your body to make the shot work. Save and buy it right the first time. Save yourself pain (in your arm), and frustration when your shots suck & you spent all you $$.

Just my 3 1/5 cents.

Steve
 
mikkowilson said:
Also, wait for NAB before you decide, there may be some new stuff coming too :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Is that a pssing comment Mikko, or have you heard something? New Tiffen rigs?

I am 95% that I am going to buy a Glidecam V25 now. Are there rumours of anything at that level? I can't see Tiffen matching the V25's value.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top