Choosing a Panasonic for Low-budget HD films

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dominichicks

Active member
Hi everybody - My first post - I've been reading the threads on this site tirelessly for months now, while trying to pick my first Panasonic HD cam. I simply cannot decide between:
HVX200
HPX170
HMC150

I'll be shooting short films, in HD. This means I need decent low-light performance, great sound (will use XLR mike), nice slow mo capability, all the cine-gamma settings that have made panasonic the favourite choice for indies - and of course 24p.

I'll be editing on FCP on an intel imac, 2/66ghz, 4gb ram, lots of HD space.

I was initially drawn to the HVX200, but since I'll only be shooting HD, found myself more interested in the HPX170 which seems to be a step up in every way. However, P2 cards worry me - they're very expensive, and I'll need about 2 hours worth of shooting per day before I can upload the footage and clear the cards. Also, word round the campfire suggests the format wont last long.

This brings me to the HMC150 - the main appeal of which is the SD cards which are far more affordable for me. However, I worry about the reduced sound quality - does this only apply to the onboard mike - ie, if I'm using an XLR mike, will there be any difference between it and an HPX170? Also, how easy is the AVCHD format to edit with in FCP? Are there considerable difference in the picture quality/features/lens width (particularly with regards to the indie film look I'm going for)? Essentially I don't want a consumer style experience - I want advanced, professional features and lots of manual control to create the most film-like look - does the HMC150 match up to the HPX170 (or near enough) in this regard?

I don't have a defined budget (I'll simply keep saving until I can afford the best option), but I don't want to spend over the odds when that money could be used on XLR mikes, 35mm lens adapters and lighting...

Naturally I plan to buy Barry Green's book and DVD for whichever I choose, since I don't have experience with the DVX100 or indeed any panasonic cam and will probably have lots to learn! (upgrading from the Canon GL2/XM2).

.. And what about the HMC40??!

Your thoughts would be very appreciated.
Thanks, Dom
 
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I don't know why people think the HMC150 has "reduced" sound quality.

The onboard mics are fine but no one should use any onboard mic for recording sound on any camera any way. They are there primarily for wild sound so you can sync up multi cam or to an external recorder. Or for vacation video.

Shotgun on a boom (handled by the right boom guy) and a good Locations mixer (calibrated to the camera, usually -20 for pro cams or -12db for prosumer as they can be hard to calibrate to -20) are a must. Though you can "get away" without the Locations Mixer, you really should use one.

Tip: The solid line on the LCD sound meter is "-12db". Select "bars" on the HMC150 and you will see the levels naxed out to that line (yes the HMC also generates tone).

Tip. ALWAYS make sure your camera's ALC is turned on (it's a limiter NOT an auto gain), especially if you are skipping the Loc. Mixer. Even when the meter is in the red it willa ctually be limiting the signal. Of course try to stay OUT of the red zone. :)

You can also lav up the talent. Preferably with wireless lavs.

AS for cam choice. Unless you need minidv for shooting SD then go with the HPX170 or the HMC150. I like the new features in those 2 cameras. Waveform monitor etc!

As for film look. The HMC matches up pretty good with HPX and HVX footage that are shot with similar scene settings. I'm currently shooting a micro-butget feature length movie for someone with my HMC. I also regularly do concert and other event video and often we are using an HVX, HPX and an HMC all on the same multicam shoot.

I have the HMC150 due to media costs (and price point). Just make sure you get SDHC cards that have a good reputation and ALWAYS format IN CAMERA. I can not stress those two points enough.

Price does not always equate quality right now. OCZ class 6 have worked great for me. A-Data died within 2 weeks. Ask around and you'll get a number of suggestions on cards.

As for editing. You really do want to transcode. For FCP that would be ProRes 422 codec in y ou log and transfer. Editing interframe codecs is not a good thing to do anyway, and the AVCHD (h.264) codec is a bit processor heavy anyway. Unless you are doing quick edits of say news footage then I would transcode into proress or AVid DNxHD. Alternately you can transcode into DVCPRHD (P2) using some software from Panasonic, though I'm not sure if is available for Mac. It's called "Mainconcept AVCHDtoP2".
 
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dominichicks said:
I'll be shooting short films, in HD. This means I need decent low-light performance, great sound (will use XLR mike), nice slow mo capability, all the cine-gamma settings that have made panasonic the favourite choice for indies - and of course 24p.
Click to expand...

All of the above can do this.

I'll be editing on FCP on an intel imac, 2/66ghz, 4gb ram, lots of HD space.
Click to expand...
You may think you have lots of HD space now - but wait until you have 20 hours of HD footage on there and want to add another 20 :) You can never have enough HDDs - and don't forget you need twice or three times as much as you think - because you will want at least one and probably two backup drives that you can disconnect from the main system.

I was initially drawn to the HVX200, but since I'll only be shooting HD, found myself more interested in the HPX170 which seems to be a step up in every way. However, P2 cards worry me - they're very expensive.....
Click to expand...

That was pretty much how I arrived at the 150/151.

This brings me to the HMC150 - the main appeal of which is the SD cards which are far more affordable for me. However, I worry about the reduced sound quality - does this only apply to the onboard mike
Click to expand...

In reality - Yes

if I'm using an XLR mike, will there be any difference between it and an HPX170?
Click to expand...

Unless you have so called golden ears - by the time audio has been compressed you are very unlikely to hear the difference between any of the cams - Panasonic or otherwise. The biggest difference by far will be the microphone you choose.

Also, how easy is the AVCHD format to edit with in FCP?
Click to expand...

FCP does not edit AVCHD natively, you need to transcode. In FCP 6 I transcoded to ProRes 422. Since I upgraded to FCP7 I am using ProRes 422 LT because it's significantly smaller on the HDD and no noticeable difference in quality for footage coming from AVCHD.

As a guide, my MacPro (8 core 16GB RAM) transcodes at about 3x real time - so 60 mins of footage is taking around 20 mins to import in to FCP and transcode to ProRes 422 LT. On the other hand, my MacBookPro takes about 75 mins to do the same thing so instead of running at 3x it's running more like 0.75x. This is down to your CPU power. No way around this. However, once it's transcoded you should have no problems editing on your Mac. AVCHD is not a good editing codec, and while some programs will edit it natively, they leave a lot to be desired in terms of features and performance. FCP is (IMHO) worth transcoding the footage for.

Are there considerable difference in the picture quality/features/lens width (particularly with regards to the indie film look I'm going for)? Essentially I don't want a consumer style experience - I want advanced, professional features and lots of manual control to create the most film-like look - does the HMC150 match up to the HPX170 (or near enough) in this regard?
Click to expand...

The 150 should do what you need. By all means spend the extra cash and get the 170, but keep in mind it's more expensive to buy in the first place and the P2 cards are 10x (or more) the price of the SDHC cards. But, before you spend the extra cash, exactly what is it that you are expecting for the extra budget? The 150 can deliver superb footage.

I don't have a defined budget (I'll simply keep saving until I can afford the best option), but I don't want to spend over the odds when that money could be used on XLR mikes, 35mm lens adapters and lighting...
Click to expand...

It's a little dangerous to say you have no budget and will save for the best. You may never be done saving because there may always be something better just around the corner.

In terms of deliverables, the 150 does a great job. The 170 has some advantages in terms of different frame rates, but do you really need them? If you are shooting for 24p then the 150 can do that all day long, and 30p and 60p too.

.. And what about the HMC40??!
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You talked about great low light performance - that pretty much means you should spend the extra money and buy the 150 over the 40.

:)
 
And with 60p you can still do slow motion in a 30p or 24p timeline.

If you really need variable frame rates for camera effects then go for the HPX (or HVX). Most of the HVX users I know rarely, if ever, use the vari frame rates anyway.

Basically look at what your requirements are. Then look to see what matches your list the best.
 
Thank you everybody for the info.
I'm struggling to find an HMC150 for a half decent price - I'm looking for a second hand one, but there's none on ebay or gumtree (in the UK), and the first hand ones are very expensive. Any advice? Dom
 
If you want a 3 year panasonic warranty then go to some where like Prestons - http://www.videokit.co.uk/1050-ag-hmc151.html - and buy the AG-HMC151. I bought my last two from there - and I think the new price is about £2988 whereas Calumet wanted £3200+.

Alternatively, if you know you only want to shoot 24p/25p/50p/50i the you could look for an imported HMC152. The difference between the 151 and the 152 is that the 151 can do all the 150 can do AND all the 152 can do in a single camera that is switchable between 50hz and 60hz.

The 150 is 60hz only (intended for USA)
The 151 is 50hz / 60hz switchable and ships throughout Europe
The 152 is 50hz only (intended for Australia, NZ etc)

If you google HMC152 you should find some in the UK around £2600 new (inc VAT). Not sure if this is what you call a decent price or not, but note that it may not come with a Panasonic 3 year UK warranty, so you may want to check in to that.
 
It's not a bad price but I can get a second hand HVX200 for £1600... surely the HMC150 should be available for cheaper than that second hand? Just cant find any on ebay or gumtree... Might have to go for an hvx200?
 
There are a few in the Marketplace section found at the bottom of the forums but very few of them will ship internationally but it's still worth an inquiry.
 
dominichicks said:
It's not a bad price but I can get a second hand HVX200 for £1600... surely the HMC150 should be available for cheaper than that second hand? Just cant find any on ebay or gumtree... Might have to go for an hvx200?
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Don't forget to factor in the cost for P2 cards if you are going to go for a s/h HVX200.
 
HMC150 for your situation, all the way!
for budget filmmaking and videography gigs this camera will give you the most features and performance for your money.
and it will be one of your favorite cameras for many years to come.

you can't find any used because its still a relatively new camera and almost no one that owns one wants to sell theirs.
 
So im confused about the formatting of this cam...

What exactly is AVCHD about, and if I were to buy this cam what hurdles would I run into? Any info would be great!

Seems everyone is talknig about transcoding the footage etc... im a newbie when it comes to the business end.
 
FCP has the ability to avoid transcoding for both DVCPRO-HD and AVC-Intra. It always "rewraps" the footage, to .MOV format, but it doesn't always "transcode". DVCPRO-HD and AVC-Intra don't have to be transcoded.
 
I've dragged the entire folder onto my desktop and using FCP to import file, it just opens the folder, it wont import the folder as a whole.
 
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