Chinese 2K RAW S35 Cinema Camera, 8000 dollars

KineRAW-S35 (tm) sample image.

KineRAW-S35 (tm) sample image.

I'm told that Kinefinity.com (sm) has been working on a revised web site with video links page and galleries of images, I have sent them many of both to share, and they are having people in China shoot as well for that. They are getting ready to go to a trade show, so are busy with some camera and demo things now, but after that you can ask them about when the revised web pages will be posted.

Its best to only evaluate the 48bpp TIF images an not any JPG since the monitoring tables used in making adjustments will introduce banding and other ugly artifacts to the uncompressed camera footage, you should look at the uncompressed images, if you want some you can email me and I can upload some to your email box.

The camera's firmware and my software are still in development, and if you process the camera raw data with any particular program you can get different results.

Here is a half size of another frame from a new Vimeo video I am working on, since Vimeo does not support 2048x1080 I will have to letter box or crop it to fit 1920x1080 there so that is another issue. I'm using the CinemaDNG (tm) making an uncompressed DI for the Vimeo videos.

With the Cineform (tm) clips its best to look at the camera original footage rather than an edited version.

The only good way to watch this footage is from an uncompressed (no codec, RGB) AVI file on a 2K monitor.

The full size uncompressed images show much more detail and are much more "life like" from the CinemaDNG (tm) source DNG which are 12bit being interpolated to "13bits" in the green.



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KineRAW-S35 (tm) sample images.

KineRAW-S35 (tm) sample images.

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Here are some more half size jpg from TIF taked from the CinemaDNG frames shot in KineRAW-S35 (tm)

The person in the images is Alvin Somwaru, you can contact him through his fan facebook page if you have some role for him or an internship off camera etc.
 
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Hi Dan

I was looking for your raw converter to download and try, but couln't find it on your site. Is it in the DanCad.zip download package? Very hard to tell from the website descriptions.
 
Same here.

Dan, as much as I appreciate your work, your knowledge and what you do for the community, but that website is IMHO a usability-disaster (tm).

Sorry , Frank
 
New KineRAW-S35 (tm) Cineform (tm) test frame samples.

New KineRAW-S35 (tm) Cineform (tm) test frame samples.

Attached are some exposure test frames attached made from some of the DNG frames from shots I made yesterday using the BOTH recording mode that records BOTH Cineform (tm) and CinemaDNG (tm) at the same time, I will be sending selected shots in Cineform (tm) to Kinefinity.com (sm) and using the CinemaDNG (tm) DNG frames to make an edited version using my uncompressed DI system to then compress for posting on Vimeo (tm) if things go well.

These exposure test samples were processed in the free program XNVIEW (tm) but since its only 8bit internal processing (as far as I know, it warns the 12bit data is converted to 8bits, unlike my program that converts the 12bit data to 16bits for processing to retain the fractional values from interpolation and scaling) so XNVIEW (tm) useful for quick focus and exposure checks but not really so much for quality motion picture production at full size, perhaps.

Each program you process the camera's raw data in will give the results its own look. My programs are not required for use of the KineRAW (tm) cameras, I am just trying to support them and other uncompressed Digital Cinema Cameras that don't require a NDA and have downloadable sample frames anyone can use for compatibility testing (Unlike ARRI (tm) and Aaton (tm) as far as I know).

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1) My software is not needed for use of the KineRAW (tm) cameras.

2) I have not had time the last five years to do much about the web site, and I was waiting for the KineRAW-S8 (tm) to go on sale and purchase one to do a review of it and add presets to my software to support it, but it has not gone on sale, and they say if and when it does it will be re-designed, so I cannot carry out my plan using data from the KineRAW-S8p (tm) and I am not allowed to make an uncensored review of the prototype, not that that would be of much use since our original agreement in maybe offering it for sale on ebay has not come to pass (yet?). So since it cannot be purchased at this time my software support and the years I have spend working on that are for the most part not immediately relevant.

3) I have been posting photos and sample test images here because people seemed interested in the progress Kinefinity.com (sm) has been making with their improved S35 second revision, that they do plan on starting sales on soon as I understand what they seem to be saying about that issue.

4) I'm not involved in sales and do not share in any profits from sales, in fact that was my agreement with them, that I would try to support their cameras in my free de-Bayer program, in a non-exclusive way as I am also trying to support other cameras, and they would keep any profits from the camera sales to themselves. I'm just trying to show what my software can do with their data and am helping with some calibrations. I did tests almost 5 years ago on their first models data and have helped review various revisions as they improve the data quality and having that data helps me also improve my software's processing as you cannot simulate Bayer data in a useful way as the OLPF and lens impact how you need to process the data. If you don't like my web site or software its no skin off my nose, I have offered to answer questions and give instructions by email, if someone is to lazy to ask questions by email they are probably too lazy to make use of my programs anyway.

5) There are lots of other programs you can use, most of which are maybe faster if not better in the ultimate results, if someone does like my results then they would need to live with the slow processing and windows issues. I'm too busy doing useful things to spend time on my web site that in the end would not matter to anyone anyway as they would probably not use my DI system since most people that can afford a $6000 camera can afford commercial software. I was hoping to get a $250 2.5K digital cinema camera on the market that would meet the minimum standard for conversion to 35mm anamorphic release print, but over the last five years 35mm prints have become obsolete, so times change and when you work with other people they have their own ideas, so you get what you can and live with what else comes your way.

6) Harping about my web site is not contributing anything constructive as far as I can tell, I'm busy shooting test footage and making look up tables for the camera, I was shooting new calibration frames today, tonight I need to work on some titles for the next Vimeo video of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) footage I shot last month, so my own personal projects are at the very bottom of the list now. I hope they are able to make some kind of camera that will be a success and sell it at a price that is within the grasp of filmmakers that would like an alternative to over compressed cameras so that they can get results that look more like movie film did in the days when it was still manufactured and labs still operated in local places so you could get 24 hour turn around on work prints. I remember what film looked like before DI limited its tonal range, I hope to bring some of that to the results of my own processing as an alternative to the multi-level marketing of the Japan Inc.'s idea of what movies made on a budget should look like. If you don't like my results enough to email me for instructions then you don't seem very serous to me. My software is for making feature films, that is a large and complex task for one person to do, I have come from a film editing background and its frame based. Its all uncompressed. Its something designed for a particular end product. What people "think" they are doing by "editing" on their mac-book is a proxy edit for the most part, then the post house needs to conform to the EDL and do a real DI. My software IS a real DI you can do at home, not pay a post house half a million dollars to do for you. If you have half a million dollars to have someone else do the work for you, then yes that would make things simpler for YOU. I don't have money to pay anyone to do anything for me, so I made an alternative to the "system" take it of leave it.

7) If anyone has questions about when they can purchase a camera its best to email Kinefinity.com (tm) directly about that.
 
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Razz16mm said:
Hi Dan

I was looking for your raw converter to download and try, but couln't find it on your site. Is it in the DanCad.zip download package? Very hard to tell from the website descriptions.
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There is no file named DANCAD.ZIP (tm) on my web site, the DI system is in DANCAD16.ZIP (tm) and the de-Bayer programs are in DANCINEC.ZIP (tm) which is in the utilities download section since its a utility for the DI system. Movie film scanning is in DANCINES.ZIP (tm) and the DIY film recorder program is in DANCINEL.ZIP (tm). DANCAD3D.ZIP (tm) is an old 8 bit version not part of the Cinema programs. DANCINEC.EXE (tm) v0.07 is not released yet because I've been too busy to finish the audio extraction support for Acam dII (tm) and some other details, v0.06 is the one currently posted. The improved version of DANCINEL.EXE (tm) is not finished because I have not had time to work in it, maybe I will post it before 35mm print stock is discontinued, otherwise would need to stockpile film, or convert the edited uncompressed 48bpp TIF/DPX to a JPG2000 compressed DCP in some other companies software.
 
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Kinefinity.com (sm) tells me they have been working on a revised version of THEIR web site with video link pages and gallries of images and frame samples, and that they hope to post it before too long, but they are busy trying to get ready for the trade shot BIRTV 2012, so if you want to talk with them you can email Kinefinity.com (sm) and ask them to tell you what their booth number is there.

Its my understanding they will be talking to people about orders and bulk orders etc.

They will also probably have the Cineform (tm) clips there so if you bring some large USB drives or a USB hard drive, you can probably download some sample Cineform (tm) clips and TIF frame samples to look at on your own software etc.

http://www.birtv.com/en/Eindex.aspx/
 
Dan Hudgins said:
There is no file named DANCAD.ZIP (tm) on my web site, the DI system is in DANCAD16.ZIP (tm) and the de-Bayer programs are in DANCINEC.ZIP (tm) which is in the utilities download section since its a utility for the DI system. Movie film scanning is in DANCINES.ZIP (tm) and the DIY film recorder program is in DANCINEL.ZIP (tm). DANCAD3D.ZIP (tm) is an old 8 bit version not part of the Cinema programs. DANCINEC.EXE (tm) v0.07 is not released yet because I've been too busy to finish the audio extraction support for Acam dII (tm) and some other details, v0.06 is the one currently posted. The improved version of DANCINEL.EXE (tm) is not finished because I have not had time to work in it, maybe I will post it before 35mm print stock is discontinued, otherwise would need to stockpile film, or convert the edited uncompressed 48bpp TIF/DPX to a JPG2000 compressed DCP in some other companies software.
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Thanks for the info Dan.
 
Postmaster said:
Just played with some of the CineRaw demo material in FirstLight.

Jeeeeeesus Christ!

I buy that camera right of the bat, as soon it is available.

Frank
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I've been impressed with the IQ of the samples Dan has posted so far. Coming from a background of developing astronomical cameras the Kineraw team should have some hardcore IP for extracting the most visually useful info from raw data.
 
Its better to play with the camera raw footage on your own DI system so you can see how wide its range is and to look at many shots to get a better feel for what you can do with it. The first thing I noticed is that in the S35 footage I can pull up the shadow detail much more than in the S8p footage, which itself can be better than a 35mm film scan in some ways.

Its a dream to grade the S35 footage you can correct for lighting error due to unaided location lighting, I've tried grading compressed footage from a Canon (tm) camera and it turns into a mess if underexpose then grade it back up, but the KineRAW-S35 (tm)'s DNG frames let you pull up the shadows so you can cut the exposure to hold the highlights when you need to for the most part.

I would recommend anyone download all the clips they can, I have another batch of Cineform (tm) to review and select takes from to upload to Kinefinity.com (sm) tonight.

Its better to look at the original footage because everyone's monitor is different, more so with HD or LCD monitors, so what looks great pushed to the edge on my 2K CRT grading monitor may look clipped on someone's LCD monitor and if I make things very flat to avoid that people will think the images don't have enough 'pop' so its better to grade the raw footage and see what you can see in it on your own monitors.

I'll be processing some of the shots I've made into edited videos for Vimeo, but those end up being at least double compressed and the 2K camera (DCP size) images need to be cropped or resized and letter boxed to fit into HD 1920x1080 for Vimeo, that resize can degrade the image as well, so if you can play the raw clips or look at uncompressed 2K TIF on a 2K monitor 1:1 pixel from 3x the image diagonal to get a better idea of how your own footage would look on the movie theater screen, its a Digital Cinema Camera.
 
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BIRTV2012, Aug 22nd~25th, KineRAW-S35 (tm) is at booth number is 2B222

BIRTV2012, Aug 22nd~25th, KineRAW-S35 (tm) is at booth number is 2B222

Just got word about the booth number where history will be made:

BIRTV2012, Aug 22nd~25th, KineRAW-S35 (tm) is at booth number is 2B222

Get your priceline worked out...
 
KineRAW-S35 (tm) web site pages being revised

KineRAW-S35 (tm) web site pages being revised

adam777 said:
Their website is still down
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They told me that have revised their web site with download link pages and galleries of frame samples and still photos etc.

So, we will have to wait and see what the new pages show...
 
Update on KineRAW-S35 (sm) progress, sample frames 59.94fps

Update on KineRAW-S35 (sm) progress, sample frames 59.94fps

Darkdeity9194 said:
I like what Kinefity is doing. Any ETA on when the page will be up again?
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The new Kinefinity.com (sm) web site is under development, I have seen what they are working on but they don't want it public yet because the text is being revised and they don't have all the pages filled in yet.

They tell me that the links of the Cineform (tm) MOV and 3D-LUT should still work under their URL, so email me if you have a problem with that other than long download times, some of those clips I sent them are around 500GB and I made some new ones of over 1GB each, so the download times are going to be longer because this is high quality raw sensor data even with the light Cineform (tm) wavelet compression.

I shot some tests yesterday using the 1280x720p 59.94fps mode and attached are the ungraded shot from XNVIEW (tm)'s processing of the data under the DNG tags (which will be adjusted better in the released "look" files for the camera's monitoring probably) and a 'graded' version that is a bit lighter. XNVIEW (tm) is only a 8bit core program and clips the highlight detail off as part of its AGC ISO adjustment, but is useful for general exposure, noise, and focus checks of the DNG frames (I was shooting in BOTH mode that records CinemaDNG (tm) 100% uncompressed True RAW, and Cineform (tm) raw that is Bayer data wavelet compressed but does not have the block artifacts that H.264 cameras can show and is low compression high bandwidth for high quality results with less disk space needed.)

I don't know when the web site will be back up, maybe a while, but you can talk to them at BIRTV 2012 booth 2B222 in a few weeks if you are going to that trade show, they may have three working KineRAW-S35 (tm) there to show, and they may be demoing the 1920x1080p monitor HD-SDI output working live and for playback (it also does 1280x720p for larger text and bigger zoom size in EVF and on small monitors).


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