Chinese 2K RAW S35 Cinema Camera, 8000 dollars

VMT said:
. But your blanket statement that China only makes junk is unfounded.
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No. Thats not what I said at all.

If you read my post you will see that I said: "There is no question about Chinese manufacturing of foreign products - the standard is very high for iPhones and what not. But Chinese designed products, in my personal experience as a consumer of various products thus far, has been entirely negative."

So I already stated I knew manufacturing in China is of a high standard (where foreign companies take advantage of cheap labor). However these products you have described such as your iPhone and laptop are essentially designed abroad. They are manufactured in China, but not actual Chinese products.

My experience of actual Chinese products to date has been negative. I'm talking about a calculator that didn't work, a claw hammer that bent when I tried to pull a nail, toys for my kids that were so badly made they were already broken in the box and were covered in toxic paint and had foul language in the badly translated instructions. That kind of thing.
 
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simonpwood said:
No. Thats not what I said at all.

If you read my post you will see that I said: "There is no question about Chinese manufacturing of foreign products - the standard is very high for iPhones and what not. But Chinese designed products, in my personal experience as a consumer of various products thus far, has been entirely negative."

So I already stated I knew manufacturing in China is of a high standard (where foreign companies take advantage of cheap labor). However these products you have described such as your iPhone and laptop are essentially designed abroad. They are manufactured in China, but not actual Chinese products.

My experience of actual Chinese products to date has been negative. I'm talking about a calculator that didn't work, a claw hammer that bent when I tried to pull a nail, toys for my kids that were so badly made they were already broken in the box and were covered in toxic paint and had foul language in the badly translated instructions. That kind of thing.
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OK simonpwood. You've shared your opinion. You've purchased 10 Chinese products and because they weren't good, ALL CHINESE products (oh, only the ones that they engineer, because you personally know all 50 million Chinese engineers, and they aren't smart enough to do good work) are trash/garbage not even worthy of us discussing in this thread on this forum.

Yes, you call a spade a spade. No problem at all. I'm the same person.....the problem that I have is that you're saying that EVERY CARD IN THE DECK is a spade. (Without looking at every card in the deck...nice.)

So...you're NOT interested in this cam. Cool.
You're not interested in cams that are engineered in China. Cool.
China builds bad hammers. Eh?
China builds bad calculators. Uhhh...mmmmm.....

Can we get back on subject here? We (on this thread) are talking about a RAW, S35, 2K camera for under $8K. This Chinese camera company is also producing a S8 and S16 sensor size cameras. We're discussing those too. If you want to discuss the state of Chinese manufacturing....go start a thread and troll all you want. (It might not last long on this forum) But for your sake....go find something you ARE INTERESTED IN.....you are clearly NOT INTERESTED in THIS CAM. So....we get it. You're not interested. Please move along.

PS: And for the record....I don't have a clue what the quality of this camera will be. I haven't USED IT. There aren't any reviews on it. It may NOT be what I'm looking for. But I won't know that until more information is shared. Dan Hudgins has been providing early information which is appreciated by many of us who ***ARE*** interested. I'm not the "Great Defender of China"....I'm just not going to judge something that hasn't been released yet.

Your suggesting that by merely knowing that it is engineered in China....means that it is "garbage"....is perilously close to racism. Some would say that it is, some would say that it isn't. What I would say (repeat) is....we got it: You're not interested. Continuing to to repeat that Chinese engineers make garbage, is going to look like you have some other motive here. Honestly Dude....move along.
 
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HHL said:
Can we get back on subject here? We (on this thread) are talking about a RAW, S35, 2K camera for under $8K. This Chinese camera company is also producing a S8 and S16 sensor size cameras. We're discussing those too. If you want to discuss the state of Chinese manufacturing....go start a thread and troll all you want. (It might not last long on this forum) But for your sake....go find something you ARE INTERESTED IN.....you are clearly NOT INTERESTED in THIS CAM. So....we get it. You're not interested. Please move along.
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HHL; you seem to be getting emotional. I have only been subjective in countering some observations raised by others. I did not instigate the 'Chinese' aspect of this conversation, I only responded to it. That is not trolling.

But I agree. Lets get back on the subject of the camera (which I am interested in, and which I will continue to observe as it develops). Like I said before; I hope this camera does well.
 
I would also like to point out that i am in no way questioning the manufacturing power or quality of products made in China. What I am suggesting is that this camera will have been designed by a team who are 1. not fully up to the job(i'll explain why I think this later), 2. never been anywhere near a professional film set(thats a given) 3. based in the office of a manufacturing plant(There are no 'industrial design houses' in China). The designer/s are likely to be more from the role of production manager, more than true designers. They understand manufacture, but without understanding the artistic element to movie making the camera will lack elements aimed at those who shoot pieces of art.

They will steal/copy certain obvious aspects and design/marketing details from the likes of established brands, probably without even having the product in front of them. They will literally be looking at information on the internet. Even worse, the company responsible has had some part in manufacturing of a branded product and have stolen certain design elements straight out of the existing product they are taking as their reference. Being that they don't fully grasp why certain elements are designed in a particular way they are likely to oversee fundamentals in funtionality (such as, the camera wont be designed to last 50 lens changes a day for 5 years. It will be overseen because the guys designing the camera don't work on a film set, or do real world hands on research)


Software design will be flawed. for sure! No chinese company will pay enough for a skilled software designer, hence no decent computer games, no decent professional software comes from China, and no user friendly GUi are ever seen on a chinese manufactured product. It like a unbranded TV vs a sony TV. The sony TV has a user interface which is not only attractive, but also logical. You turn a sony tv on after it has been unplugged for 10 days and it remembers your settings. the same product copied from china might look the same, but the software will have some type of nasty bug where the tv ends up doing something silly like resets to default every time the tv is unplugged. The HDMI ports will have a life cycle of 1000 cycles instead of 5000 etc.

Its the quality control as well, and the understanding of the consumer. Most chinese workers (including designers) don't earn enough money over there to ever aspire to own a 8k usd camera, so how on earth can they even begin to understand the technicalities, physical performance attributes and the like required in such a product?

Things will improve, and it wont be long, but for now, with my experience with working with far east manufacture, they do not have the attention to detail to develop original products to fulfil duties in specialist sectors like film making.
 
richg101
This will be rubbish. China dont have any good designers or artists working on technology items. period.


simonpwood
Where I live, in East Africa, the market has become flooded, absolutely flooded, with Chinese Junk.


Lee Saxon
Why? Every word is spot on.
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If you have a specific company/product to call garbage, rubbish, junk - start a thread and knock yourself out. At this stage, you have specifically grouped them as "Chinese". Take that somewhere else. (Unless you plan on submitting a detailed report on EVERY Chinese manufacturing company to justify your generalization.)

If you have specific or general concerns about this company/product, knock yourself out.
If your specific concern is linked to the fact that they are Chinese....go troll somewhere else.
 
They will steal/copy certain obvious aspects and design/marketing details from the likes of established brands, probably without even having the product in front of them. They will literally be looking at information on the internet. Even worse, the company responsible has had some part in manufacturing of a branded product and have stolen certain design elements straight out of the existing product they are taking as their reference. Being that they don't fully grasp why certain elements are designed in a particular way they are likely to oversee fundamentals in funtionality (such as, the camera wont be designed to last 50 lens changes a day for 5 years. It will be overseen because the guys designing the camera don't work on a film set, or do real world hands on research)
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Do you know every Chinese manufacturer and/or engineer? This thread is about this company, these cameras: http://www.kineraw.com/

Dan showed these images. What camera does it look like to you? I am unaware that it looks like any camera that I have ever seen. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ollars&p=1986118064&viewfull=1#post1986118064

So....if you have some perspective on THIS camera that THIS thread is designated for...great! If not go find one you're interested in.

If you want to attack a COUNTRY and its people (designers, artists, and engineers) go troll somewhere else.
 
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ollars&p=1986118064&viewfull=1#post1986118064

(Back on topic) Thanks again for keeping us in the loop on this Dan! I can't wait to see what this camera can do. I hope they release it soon. What's the latest delivery time-frame?
S8?
S16?
S35?

I'm not going to "wait" for their product...if something better like the FS700 (if it is better, in fact) of maybe the D-Bolex (if they deliver their product and it produces great images), but I am hoping that KineRAW delivers something that serves my purposes. (Low budget hobbiest less than 10K)
 
richg101: I would also like to point out that i am in no way questioning the manufacturing power or quality of products made in China. What I am suggesting is that this camera will have been designed by a team who are 1. not fully up to the job(i'll explain why I think this later), 2. never been anywhere near a professional film set(thats a given) 3. based in the office of a manufacturing plant(There are no 'industrial design houses' in China). The designer/s are likely to be more from the role of production manager, more than true designers. They understand manufacture, but without understanding the artistic element to movie making the camera will lack elements aimed at those who shoot pieces of art.

They will steal/copy certain obvious aspects and design/marketing details from the likes of established brands,

Software design will be flawed. for sure! No chinese company will pay enough for a skilled software designer,
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Dude that is a lot of stereotypes about an entire people bordering on being offensive. Move on already.
 
I am looking forward to hearing something from Dan. Dan how are things looking on the s35 front? Is there any video that is going to be published in the near future?
 
Look, I wish them success. But here is the deal, they best package that camera far better and smaller than we are seeing it. So far all I see is a Commodore 64 flipped on it's side with a lens attached to it. Straight ugly, not robust looking and did I say ugly. I don't need a camera to look cool, but this thing is taking ugly to new levels. Will it work? Maybe. Will I buy it? Not a chance.
And to those bashing posters with their input on Chinese quality. Have any of you ever been to China? I have. And I've seen first hand some of the most disgusting environments and treatment of people ever. Wanna know why they smoke so much? They are trying to get off this planet.
 
Starus report...

Starus report...

Frist I would like to apologize to people that have to wade through the comments of people who have no direct experience with a KineRAW (tm) camera nor it seems any interest in owning one, which I gather by their view of what it might be of use to them.

One can wonder why someone who has maybe no reel interest in using or perhaps one day purchasing a product would spend so much time trying to dissuade people who are interested? Do they have a reason for spending so much time being negative about a companies products that they have not used?

Perhaps some people or companies feel threatened that products made in China may develop into products that not only equal but eventually surpass products that they may have an association with? Otherwise why don't they just ignore it as any ordinary person might ignore things that are irrelevant to themselves?

Since people here have said that they do have in interest in the cameras and are following their development, then why do we need to wade through some kind of tug-of-war between those who are interested and those who are not. I would suggest maybe just ignoring the comments of people that for reasons of their own cannot say anything based on their experience using a KineRAW (tm) camera or otherwise dealing directly with Kinefinity.com (sm) as the subject of this thread is as I understand it to help interested people follow the cameras development. Some people here have asked me to continue to update them on what I understand is going on, and I have tried to do that and appreciate the thanks I have been given for passing on what information I am able.

In cases where people make seemingly false statements, what can you do, the internet is full of misinformation that gets propagated, and sometimes there is a reason for that perhaps, one can wonder.

==

As for what is going on, last I heard the S35 is having a new OLPF designed at an optics company, they might be testing that by the end of next week. Its a quick turnaround to get a new filter designed and manufactured in sample quality in less that two weeks. I'll have to see the results of some shots to compare the results with the previous one that was being used. I recommended doing the optics work first because any change to the OLPF requires re-calibration of the color balance, so its just less work overall to do that change now rather than later, so the delay in test footage can be blamed on me I guess, but hopefully the changes will result in better looking test footage, time will tell.

I took the KineRAW-S8p (tm) outside today with the Kowa 3.5mm f/2.4 HR megapixel lens on it, plus a Tiffen ND0.9 and a wide angle sunshade, and mounted the Bolex (tm) pistol-grip on the camera to the adapter plate I made for the bottom of the camera. I shot 60GB of DNG frames of various subjects hand held using the 1920x1440x12bit@24.000fps mode, I plan on cropping that to 1920x817 letterboxed into 1920x1080 to make a new Vimeo video that I'll post when I get through grading and editing the shots together along with maybe some more shots. I have the 48fps and 72fps modes to test as well for hand held shooting as well as lots of other resolutions and frame rates as the camera shoots from 1fps to 220fps currently. The 48fps and 72fps modes can be used for slow motion or skip printed.

One question is if the KineRAW-Sp8 (tm) should be offered as is, or re-designed to improve various aspects and maybe use a faster sensor, obviously that can delay its getting to market. As it stands its maybe a useful tool for those who have in interest, with some changes that interest might widen. You can email Kinefinitty.com (tm) if you have any serious interest and share your thoughts so they know what you are thinking maybe.

==

The KineRAW (tm) cameras are in my view not a recent "me-to" knockoff. I have been talking to them about my software support for their camera development for about 4 years now, and they were working on the camera circuits before Acam dII (tm) or RED ONE (tm) or Arri Alexa (tm) when to sale. Actually I was talking to other camera makers even before that time and my freeish DI system has been underdevelopment since before that time as well.

The development of uncompressed Digital Cinema Cameras is a development of increasing bandwidth of SSD reducing the need for in camera compression and any losses that may cause to the image quality. The fact that James Lee and Kinefinity (tm) have been able to build cameras that record 2.5K fully uncompressed and others have not gotten to that bandwidth yet I would think shows their technology is perhaps on the leading edge rather than the other way around.

For my own interest I have shot movie film for 47 years now and as anyone can tell its sunset is near perhaps, none the less, Digital Cinema Cameras will probably shoot more films in the coming years than film cameras the economies of using Digital Cinema Cameras over shooting, processing and scanning 35mm movie film can be helpful to micro-budget filmmakers interested in making feature films. I don't really care if the camera breaks after 3 months of shooting, its an expendable at $1500 which is the cost of a few minutes of 35mm movie film after the shooting ratio is taken into account. With the low cost of such Digital Cinema Cameras you can keep a spare with you which in my mind is better than hoping that some "quality" product will be 100% reliable. Nothing is 100% reliable as the nuclear power industry has been shown to have been deceptive about. Are two cameras 100% reliable, maybe not, but it's up to the buyer to decide if he wants to put all his eggs in one basket or not, and I find it a bit bizarre that someone should try to tell other people what the should do with their own money. I'm certainly not telling anyone they should purchase one product or another. People can make their own mind up based on what they like about the demo footage or other specs and facts that matter to them. Sometime I point out some technical issues as I understand them as a point of putting things in perspective, usually based on my own experience with what I have seen working with data from various cameras and such.

I don't think Kinefinity.com (tm) has ever said that they are "China's answer to RED (tm) and Arri (tm)" in fact I have brought up such issues with them and as I make it out they tell me that they are interested in being a kind of boutique camera maker producing a specially product that the other companies don't make which as I see it is a good thing for filmmakers to have choice in the 'look' they can achieve by picking the camera that works best for the particular project they have in mind. If someone thinks that ALL of the KineRAW (tm) cameras have zero usefulness that they have an opinion, but an opinion that others may not share, and in a free and open society one goal is to respect the right of others to not share your opinion.

My interest in the cameras is as a 35mm film replacement that is within my budget and quality requirements, other people will have other budgets and quality requirements, and I can't see a reason why someone wealthy enough to purchase an Epic (tm) would care whether of not some underprivileged filmmaker in any given country purchases a KineRAW (tm) as its his decision on how he spends his limited funds, and he can look at the terms of the warranty and such before making up his mind as well as taking with people that have used the camera on actual projects and not just with the goal of finding some irrelevant issue to nit-pick about relating to their threatened vested interests?

In my mind only one thing matters, can I get the images I want to look the way I want on the screen of the movie theater or not.
 
So far all I see is a Commodore 64 flipped on it's side with a lens attached to it. Straight ugly, not robust looking and did I say ugly. I don't need a camera to look cool, but this thing is taking ugly to new levels. Will it work? Maybe. Will I buy it? Not a chance.
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Fair enough. Everyone has to prioritize and spend money on what matters for them.

For me, I'd rather have RAW 2K S8 for $1800 and look like this....than spend $9-10K for a better looking design for similar image quality.
I respect your view though....and I'm certain that there are many who share your view. I'm pretty sure there are many who share my view too.
Valid point. Cheers!
 
GUI software support

GUI software support

With regard to the slam about made in China software not having a good GUI, one reason that Kinefinity.com (sm) has partnered with GoPro (tm) Cineform (tm) to have full GUI software support developed by experienced people that have made a successful product that has wide software support in NLE and DI systems world wide.

Also by supporting CinemaDNG (tm) all there cameras have instant support in some of the best and high end software for NLE and Di world wide. Someone wrote to me saying that Scratch (tm) nowl has native CinemaDNG import, if this is not GUI I don't know what is.

Its not to ask, what program supports KineRAW (tm), its more to ask is there ANY respected NLE that does not. As far as I can tell with some conversion every known NLE on earth can be used with KineRAW (tm) on some level.

Cineform (tm) and CinemaDNG (tm) ARE the multi-vendor standards for Cinema work world wide.

You get your pick, wavelet compressed or uncompressed, and BOTH designed in the S35 (and S16) camera writing to standard SATA interface SSD that you can connect to any computer and go.

With CinemaDNG picking up steam, one can only think that worldwide GUI support will continue to expand and improve.

Cineform (tm) has the GoPro (tm) software tools ready to use off the shelf and supported by them.

I have my freeish/free uncompressed DI system and de-Bayer software, which as some tools for making monitoring LUT to use in the cameras, if you don't like that maybe they will have some more tools for that later but at least things are already in place and being tested prior to the camera's going to market. My software can convert the DNG to TIF 48bpp/DPX 48bpp and 30bpp/CIN 30bpp/BMP 24bpp and 8bpp. The free GUI program VirtualDUB (tm) can convert the BMP frames made from the DNG along with the camera stereo sound WAV files into AVI uncompressed or MGEG4v2 or whatever other codec you can get to work in VirtualDUB (tm) and then such AVI can be loaded into just about anything or further converted into just about anything.

GoPro (tm) can convert DNG to Cineform (tm) and Cineform (tm) to DNG or DPX, so that covers most needs.

The fact is that by using industry standard file formats, Cineform (tm), Adobe (tm) CinemaDNG, and canonical WAV, Kinefinity.com (tm) did not need to lock its users into a single source proprietary file format that gives only one look, with KineRAW (tm) the filmmaker takes charge of how his footage will look with boundless options for how the camera sensor data will be processed, and if one workflow or de-Bayer does not do the trick, there are many others to pick from.

CinemaDNG (tm) is supported by industry leaders like Adobe (tm) and Iridas Speed Grade (tm). Now Mosaic (tm) supports CinemaDNG,

http://provideocoalition.com/index....nounce_real-time_raw_debayering_with_mosaict/

Future shock. Aaton (tm) is down for CinemaDNG support, Aaton (tm) knows Cinema.

See this link,

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?12096-CinemaDNG/page2

Quote: [red is the only one missing.]

Leader or follower?
 
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Don't be too quick to judge just because you had a few bad experiences with "Chinese" products. My shoes are made in China and I'm still wearing them after 4 years. My Jackie Chan branded phone is still kicking ass as well. Anyway back on topic. As I said eailer any camera regardless if it was made on the moon or in China is only as good as the person using it.
 
Great posts Dan and don't be discouraged by negative posters. I've had some very good experiences with cheap Chinese mics, some of which are designed and manufactured in China entirely, to my knowledge.

Anyway, I'm very interested to see how your handheld footage works out, as well as hearing how it handles in general. I posted over on the Dvinfo forum, a couple of reservations about the form factor for the S8 camera. I might have been fooled by the photos, as far as size goes. Obviously, being an S8 replacement, it's handheld form and ease of use, would be paramount.
 
@dustylense
And to those bashing posters with their input on Chinese quality. Have any of you ever been to China? I have. And I've seen first hand some of the most disgusting environments and treatment of people ever. Wanna know why they smoke so much? They are trying to get off this planet.
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No one's bashing anyone. Just saying opinions on the sociopolitical "failures" of Chinese society such as yours have no place on this forum. I;m here to read about the cameras of this topic, and don't want it devolve into political rants and forced to close.

And yes, I have been to China several times, studied and speak a little Chinese.
 
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Pixels count

Pixels count

AdrianF said:
Anyway, I'm very interested to see how your handheld footage works out, as well as hearing how it handles in general. I posted over on the Dvinfo forum, a couple of reservations about the form factor for the S8 camera. I might have been fooled by the photos, as far as size goes. Obviously, being an S8 replacement, it's handheld form and ease of use, would be paramount.
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As I view the S8 camera its a low cost replacement for 35mm movie film rather than Super8mm film, giving an end resolution on the 35mm anamorphic release print akin to blowing up 35mm Techniscope (tm) film, or perhaps a bit better when shooting in the 2.5K mode.

The advantage of the Super8 lenses is that they are more compact and lighter weight and also lower cost then big heavy 35mm movie camera lenses.

In the end the largest factor in image quality or at least resolution seems to be the number of pixels. 35mm release prints, 4th generation and taken from a DI through a CRT film recorder using 1828 pixel image width (2k film has a sound track area, so the image is only 1828 wide using the Cineon (tm) film scan resolutions). There are losses from the film scanner and film recorder lenses, and most of all the projection lens in the movie theater that reduce the high MTF resolution to between about 960x480 to 1280x720 on the movie screen and visible from the rear of the movie theater where most people sit.

Shooting with a 2.5k pixel resolution sensor along with a sensor that has about 70db dynamic range maybe (in 12 bit linear data), the de-Bayer artifacts are about the same no mater if its a Super8 size sensor or a vista-vision size sensor, what you gain going to the larger sensor is some extra under exposure latitude and so you gain a few stops of ISO range.

Lenses generally resolve in ratio to the image height, so if you successfully shrink a lens down to the Super8 area, then the lines per image height can be lose to what you would get on a larger format. Its not an exact match, but the cost ratio between Alexa (tm) shooting 2880x1620 and KineRAW-S8p (tm) shooting 2592x1104 is disproportionate to the pixel count.

Changes to the production S8 may make it better for being used as "po-go-cam", as it stands in the S8p (tm) like our Mitchell NC 35mm movie camera its ment for use on a tripod most of the time (ever try to hand hold the Mitchell NC?).

I'll try to test the 48fps and 72fps modes as they may be better for hand held, at 72fps on the monitor I can't see much going on with a wide angle lens bein used. It will take me some time to work through all the options, and the production cameras may have significant improvements or additions and changes so these tests are just a general run through of the camera's operations to check that the systems are functioning and the software support can be shaken down to find any bugs or issues that need to be addressed before the cameras go out for additional field testing.

In my view these are Digital Cinema Cameras for making feature films with for projection in movie theaters, although they can also be useful making television programs, even looking nice for SD use with the large oversimple ratio. I see a lot of TV shows shot with to my eye worse looking video cameras, and the cost of the S8 should be below what some high end camcorders cost.

I shot some more hand held shots in the yard this morning and will download those and make some workprint so I can see the motion better once its letterboxed and put on a 2K monitor. I keep doing that until I have like a minute or two of shots that look presentable and edit that into a short reel for my vimeo page.

By the time I get that done, Kinefinity.com (sm) will probably have some more S35 tests for me to process for evaluation...
 
Dan, your comment about 240 fps caught my eye. Could you elaborate on the resolutions available at different frame rates? Most cameras that offer higher rates, reduce the resolution to get there, say 640x480. What are the specs here?

Thanks.
 
Danielvilliers said:
basicaly a video camera is a still photo camera shooting at 24fps
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Well more than a few of us realize this. And though most of you hate to hear me rant about it, The devil is really in the economics, not the camera sales, but rather the shake ups that can occur if too much power goes into the 'wrong hands' too quickly.
Basically, the professional still photo biz, of which i was a part 20 years ago, has been on a steady decline since around 2000. That resulted in a millions of lost jobs. Those jobs were eliminated by putting automation and failsafe technology in the hands of a billion amateurs.
The pro video and movie industry can't let that happen to them and the key is to moderate the ability of amateurs to access the pro tools.
It's that simple.
So it's pointless anguishing over the obvious facts.
We do what we can with what we can afford and let the pros and big studios keep their jobs.
 
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