Chinese 2K RAW S35 Cinema Camera, 8000 dollars

[bgundu]

Some great points here. It's like any gear for a working professional. Would you go and use a new piece of gear on a production without a proven track record? I'm all for having a little competition but these guys are going to have a tough time selling these. Support is a big deal in this industry. I would still be nervous using a RED in the field without a backup camera or tech guys. There is something to be said about using a Panasonic/Sony/Canon and have a piece of mind that it delivers consistantly. Having the big boys is definitely critical to push technology but I'll stick to stuff I know can make me money right now. All the best to these guys!

 

[Dan Pears]

I think this is an exciting prospect - especially the S16 version, $8000 for S35, $4000 for S16? Though personally for that kind of cash I'd still wait out for the Scarlet... I think the most exciting thing though is that as tech advances these sort of cameras become less of a dream and vapourware and will eventually begin coming to fruition. Whether it is the Kineraw or not, who knows, but I think very soon as many in this thread has also said, we will have some amazing and affordable options to shoot with.

Hell, I still love my Gh13, so no real rush.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Very interesting, I hope it comes out to shake this industry up. If you follow the sensor and processor industry, you can see the technology is here for affordable raw camera. But it is those big companies that are holding it. I can't see one technological industry where progress is so low or intentionally crippled by marketing. When 8bit codec are the norm for $ 5000 camera when in the photo world for 1/10th of the price you are using 12 bit raw files. There are lot of off the self tech that have been coming out recently. You get a number of s35 sensor boasting some high claim in the noise and dynamic range with their fat pixel.

When you think the power of the little gh2 (hacked). More so the 12 fps 24 megapixel Raw Sony a77 throughput is the same as about 144 fps 2 k raw output. This tell you that with the hardware processing of the A77 with a 2k chip and you would easily get a 24 fps 2k raw cinema camera. This is $ 1500 dslr camera body. You don't have to figure out how those two sister technology compare (basicaly a video camera is a still photo camera shooting at 24fps). I really hope it gets out, what they should add somehow is some more capability even in limited form like a 60 fps burst mode, even for 10, 20, 30.... seconds.

recording 24fps and one frame per second are two different things. No one is holding back. There is no conspiracy.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

As Steve Jobs said "real artists ship" - it's all in the delivery. Anyone can make ambitious and beautiful plans and even prototypes, but to bring stuff to market that's what separates the men from the boys... perfect example: RED... insanely ambitious, but a bit handicapped in the execution department. That's where the big boys earn their keep - execution; it takes a Panasonic, an Arri, a Canon etc.

I'm of course as excited as the next guy by this camera, and competition is always good. BUT, you know what - this is going to be (speculatively) $8K... and today I would have no hesitation about shooting a feature on something much less "specced" than even this - I'll take an AF100, or FS100, thank you very much, for under $5K (body). I know I'll be murdered in a minute by a ton of people denouncing me, but I want to say: folks, it's all moving downstream. I fully expect truly indy cinema to work on $5K (body) cams, and even - GASP! - lower, like the GH2, for $1K (body). Yeah, yeah, I know, we're not talking hollywood, but the new creative energy and the new generation, the barriers have really come down gear-wise. It's always been ultimately about the talent and not the gear, but today that's even more underlined, because really, there's gear for practically every budget. What you still can't buy off the shelf for cheap - even in China - is talent.

This is a long-winded way of saying that from my point of view, all this is the last battle of yeasteryear and fighting the last war gear-wise, people getting excited by an $8K video cam... meh, I'm starting a project with a $1K GH2, so I don't care what happens to this camera. Scarlet, shmarlet, Epic Shmepic, whateves. Bring on the $2K and under cams - it's the face of the new REVOLUTION!!!

Camera cost is a tiny line item on any budget, big or small - now it's a bit tinier, so what? Independent cinema still holds the same market share and same demographics as it has since the 90s. Do you really think someone in the mood for a glossy, tight, well acted and superbly shot Hollywood film will suddenly want to see some obscure plotless indy film because cameras cost less now? Audiences don;t care what cameras cost - they care about story, good acting, most just want to have fun - and there are no more good writers today than there were 5 years ago. Once in a while a great indy with a fun script comes out and wooes mass audiences, but this is nothing new - El Mariachi cost just over $0 to make, and this was 20 years ago. Night of the Living Dead was in the 1960s. there will be more in the future.

As far as budgets plumetting to the point where features can't even afford to rent a Red or an F3, that's not really something I would be cheering on about if I were you. It means in the future, you will not be able to make a living.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Some great points here. It's like any gear for a working professional. Would you go and use a new piece of gear on a production without a proven track record? I'm all for having a little competition but these guys are going to have a tough time selling these. Support is a big deal in this industry. I would still be nervous using a RED in the field without a backup camera or tech guys. There is something to be said about using a Panasonic/Sony/Canon and have a piece of mind that it delivers consistantly. Having the big boys is definitely critical to push technology but I'll stick to stuff I know can make me money right now. All the best to these guys!

You would be nervous, but most working pros are not nervous at all. Red is now 100% stable and works every time. No one rents back-up Reds anymore.

 

[HHL]

I got an email from Kinefinity.com today about my interest in getting one of their KineRAW-S8 cameras to use in my CinemaDNG type uncompressed workflow, I just posted my de-Bayer program that will have support for their KineRAW cameras, as well as Acam dII (tm), Kinor-2K (tm), SI-2K (tm), OptimaCine.com (sm), and other DNG and RAW Digital Cinema Cameras.ETA on my having a rough S8 with "early firmware" is "ASAP", so I may have some sample footage to show before the end of October of this year if things go well.They told me that they are getting the S16 model close to operational testing, it has a CCD with global shutter.The SSD they have under the KineMAG (tm) brand name are special as I understand them that normal flash drives have some long waits during the write cycle, but if you get their KineMAG (tm) the data can flow uninterupted from the camera's circuits better, at least that is how I understand it, so the KineMAG (tm) is usable for the uncompressed full bandwidth needed for CinemaDNG. For recording Cineform (tm) on the S16 and S35 models they think that some stock SSD can be used and even TB 2.5" HDD like used in notebook computers. So with the 2.5" HDD you can maybe record four hours NON STOP with only about a 10:1 compression ratio, its wavelet compression like REDCODE (tm) used in the RED (tm) cameras. So it gives you a choice of uncompressed for best images under difficult lighting conditions, and wavelet compressed recording for longer record times, like for event shooting.One interesting thing is I have wondered if their KineMAG (tm) can be used in RAID for normal editing drives in the PC, since they have the normal SATA interface, it should be possable to get high I/O through them, so they might have dual use in the camera and as temp drives while editing, since uncompressed editing involves longer DISK I/O than compressed, but since the KineMAG (tm) go at sound speed in the camera, they should also speed up both workflows?

Hey Dan! Great to hear! Will you please tell them that we're here and would LOVE their input/participation here? That would be AWESOME!!!!

 

[David G. Smith]

No doubt. I wish this thing were shipping. ....

Well, if the Chinese know anything.... it is shipping products!





That is the WalMart Super Ships. Larger than a US Aircraft carrier, with a top speed of 31 knots.

While that is the present, I wonder if this camera is not really aimed for the very near future. By that I mean, China is poised to become the world largest economy, surpassing the United States. With that, they will become the largest consumers, and I bet, producers of media in the world. It is my understanding that the Chinese government really wants to shift from an economy based on exports, to an economy sustained by domestic consumption. A Chinese designed and manufactured digital cinema camera MAY very well have a large impact world wide, but I bet it also has a large impact domestically. We'll have to see if this camera pans out, but from just the little info I have seen about it, I think they are on to something.

 

[Danielvilliers]

Yes it is true, many are underestimating the Chinese market. Look at the BIRTV 2011 show. It has all those Chinese rig manufactures etc. and they are aiming mostly for their internal market for this show. I think they could easily find enough sales for their $ 8000 camera in China alone. I am sure they will want to expand, but they will have a kick-start already from their local market.

As for the 100% reliable RED camera, you should look at philip Bloom experience with his $ 58 000 Epic body. I think a malfunction is something you are going to get from any manufacturer, but claiming 100% reliability is a little exaggerated.

 

[Danielvilliers]

recording 24fps and one frame per second are two different things. No one is holding back. There is no conspiracy.

I am sure if somebody told you that these big video manufactures could produce a large (around S35) size sensor camera in a body that would hold in the palm of your hand for less than $ 1000 about 3 years ago. You would have told him that it was impossible. That the industry is not holding back etc. I don't like the word conspiracy what I prefer is marketing or strategies. Try to milk the cow the most you can. The fact that this S35 video HDSLR revolution comes from another tech (photo camera) tells you a lot about the video industry mentality. I find it terrible that you are still getting 8bit codec in a $ 5000 camera body.

To get back to your quote above, the fact that you can get an S35 size video camera for less than $ 1000 in a photo camera, is because those two technologies are so close, that the R&D and tech cost near to nothing. A movie is just a succession of at least 24 still images, there are other subtleties like shutter etc, but in the end they both shared film and now sensor technology. The exposure, iso, aperture are the same principal.

 

[LoganMackay]

You would be nervous, but most working pros are not nervous at all. Red is now 100% stable and works every time. No one rents back-up Reds anymore.

Philip Bloom



"On maiden voyage of my Epic it died. Ironic as next to door to where Titanic was built!"

 

[Michael Olsen]

Philip Bloom

"On maiden voyage of my Epic it died. Ironic as next to door to where Titanic was built!"

At once, it would be a mistake to say that all RED cameras are 100% stable and work every time. That's just setting oneself up for failure, as everything will fail. Nothing is perfect.

And to be fair, Philips camera was a "a hand-assembled, non-production run camera [that is] is intended for users who can provide testing and constructive feedback directly to RED." That's right on the product page. And, unless I'm mistaken, Philip found a bug related to a specific set of menu settings causing the camera to rather harshly lock itself off. The bug has been fixed since with a firmware upgrade.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming regarding the KineRAW and its gorgeous $8000 price tag. Perhaps KineRAW will do what RED has done all over again...we shall see.

 

[Paul Hudson]

Now maybe they will make an affordable high speed camera? That is something I would really like to see.

 

[supergrafx]

Can't wait for info in regards to the CCD S16 unit! This is great news!

 

[daveswan]

Just a little note about Chinese manufacturing and what it does to prices.

Back when I was a lad, a 6" refractor was something only a very rich amateur astronomer could afford.
Then along came Synta (AKA Skywatche
Now you can get a 6" f/8 'scope from Skywatcher for about £550.

Dave

 

[Lee Saxon]

The bug has been fixed since with a firmware upgrade.

Which Red didn't charge him thousands of dollars for. *cough*sony*cough*

 

[Danielvilliers]

This is very different, one is to fix a problem (bug that can render your camera useless)the other one is to add functionality. I would have preferred that the F3 came standard with the S-log but these two are not comparable at all.

 

[charles29]

Wow, so expensive camera, its function is very strong?

 

[Tzedekh]

This is very different, one is to fix a problem (bug that can render your camera useless)the other one is to add functionality. I would have preferred that the F3 came standard with the S-log but these two are not comparable at all.

To its credit, since releasing the Red One, Red has improved image quality and added a great deal of functionality via firmware upgrades, all at no additional charge.

 

[TimurCivan]

And to be fair, Philips camera was a "a hand-assembled, non-production run camera [that is] is intended for users who can provide testing and constructive feedback directly to RED." That's right on the product page. And, unless I'm mistaken, Philip found a bug related to a specific set of menu settings causing the camera to rather harshly lock itself off. The bug has been fixed since with a firmware upgrade.

Now riddle me this. Had the tsunami never happened, and epics were produced this spring on schedule, Jannard stated that they would have fully functional firmware when they shipped epic x. Meaning a finalized firmware should have been available in april.

And.... for 58k, and being hand bult it should be better, not worse.

Cooke S4's vs canon primes.... more expensive, and hand built = better... not worse.

 

[Tzedekh]

Now riddle me this. Had the tsunami never happened, and epics were produced this spring on schedule, Jannard stated that they would have fully functional firmware when they shipped epic x. Meaning a finalized firmware should have been available in april.

Functional, yes. But I was under the impression that had the cameras been released in spring, they might be missing some features. Besides, since when is Red's firmware ever final?