Felipe Henao
Well-known member
24 Bit recordings give you room in post not so 16 bit, I think recording in camera as well as in recorder, full sound boompole and lavalier is the way!
Cheap recorder that doesn't compromise
- Thread starter David Evans
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ozmorphasis
Well-known member
Especially if you have fine gain control over the level that is being fed to camera with a mixer or recorder that has control over output, then camera audio is pretty darn good a lot of the time. It's the lame tiny level pots on cameras that make riding/adjusting gain a pain in the butt. This is mitigated if feeding from a Sound Devices Preamp, mixer, or recorder.
Doug_EX
Well-known member
He ask for a low cost solution, this is why a suggested those recorders.
Personally, I wouldn't buy them but when every dollar count you must make choices that reflect the size of your wallet.
Word.
Regarding in-cam audio; the DSLR crowd is still sucking airspace badly. Video, i think, is a growing segment for still cam models, but in the big picture, video-audio is still an afterthought to still capability. The new Panny GH5s has an add on audio adapter and wonder how well it works. But the Canon crowd is still screwed. There are some things I'd like to use a DSLR for, but I have to commit to second system to do so. I often use my handycam by default if second system is too much hassle. But as previously mentioned, works plenty well for dialogue.
Grant
Grant
Regarding the tiny pots, which have always been a really bad feature, my handycam has a programmable and well placed finger wheel, right where I would hold the cam with my left hand. Programmed for audio, it is only good for one channel, but it is really really handy. Did I say really?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I made a mini version that uses a clothespin and so is one handed for quickie OMB on the run slating.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
The biggest issue with most "in camera" sound is that a cameraman is controlling it and they are focused on the image not the sound. If you are R&Ging and you are not going to use a sound person then it kind of doesn't matter because either way nobody is focusing on sound. If you have a sound person, and they are worth having, they will not be at all happy not having control over the sound. I have only done one shoot where it was all "in camera" and it was horrible. Two cameras and both screwed the pooch on sound. I donated ADR because I felt so bad for them even though it was a choice I argued against. Since then I Always feed through a recorder. THey can use the in camera if they want but I have a safety that I have control over.
I will agree though that the quality of audio on most cameras today is vastly better than it was and , providing someone is paying attention, can be pretty much on a par with a stand alone recorder.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
Stand alone recorders allow 24 bits in camera not. That counts!
Felipe,
In fact my PX270 does record 24 bit.
Noise,
I could never do run and gun and do multiple audio tracks with any measure of control. Although, with the finger wheel on my PX270, I can do a single track of wireless (so as not to trip over my own cables) reasonably well. I would have never thought this before this feature. Is it as good as a dedicated audio person, no. Can I get away with it for short segments, usually.
In fact my PX270 does record 24 bit.
Noise,
I could never do run and gun and do multiple audio tracks with any measure of control. Although, with the finger wheel on my PX270, I can do a single track of wireless (so as not to trip over my own cables) reasonably well. I would have never thought this before this feature. Is it as good as a dedicated audio person, no. Can I get away with it for short segments, usually.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
That is great, my Canon and Panasonic cameras only 16
Run&Gun
Veteran
I'm missing something here. Why would the audio guy NOT have control over the sound? To me, this sounds like an "operator error" type situation. For the 20+ years I've been doing this, SOP is:
1) Mixer goes to camera at line level/camera is set to line level.
2) Camera is "zeroed out" with tone from the mixer and camera levels (set manually) are locked down.
3) Audio is now completely controlled by the sound guy from the mixer.
Any audio issues at this point, outside of technical issues/malfunctions, would be on the audio guys shoulders, because, outside of the possibly higher bit-rate, the camera is performing the same function as the dedicated audio recorder. It's only recording what is being sent to it from the mixer. Low levels: audio guys fault. Blown audio: audio guys fault.
If you are shooting on a professional camera and following standard professional protocols for sending audio from a professional mixer to the camera, there should be absolutely no reason(outside of a technical malfunction) that you don't have good audio recorded in camera, as long as the audio guy was able to get good audio to begin with.
GaryNattrass
Veteran
Once again I totally agree and adding a sep recorder and potential sync issues just multiplies the problems.
As for 24 bit in 38 years of TV and Film work I don't think I have ever used 24 bit for recording or delivery as the spec is usually 16 bit 48khz, besides once dubbed the dynamic range is probably 10-20 db max so extra dynamic range is not required. Some of my best used sound effects were recorded on a minidisc with a Sony ECM-MS907 or 957 budget mic too.
As for gain structure I did a couple of videos on the subject a few years ago showing line up for -18dbfs and -20dbfs:
https://youtu.be/pJWKLbVZVU4
https://youtu.be/s7jG_djmiX0
Line up on location that way and it still gives you 10-12db of headroom up to 0dbfs but personally I also have a limiter on my mixer or camera that keeps peaks at -10/12 dbfs.
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You still have issues of dealing with cabling running from the soundie to the camera, plus risks of settings bumped wrong on the camera by accident (but having a camera return helps improve the odds of catching that).
Plus also the camera is only doing two tracks usually, yet usually I'm recording more than two tracks.
David Evans
Well-known member
Thanks for all the help guys. Like I said, the only situation I see myself using a sep recorder is when using a steadycam because the xlr cables in camera would unbalance the steadycam system.
What about a Sony PCM D50? I think they're discontinued but maybe I can find one second hand. Or the Sony PCM M10?
Thanks
What about a Sony PCM D50? I think they're discontinued but maybe I can find one second hand. Or the Sony PCM M10?
Thanks
Brilliant!
When it’s a OMB operation, the person operating the camera is the person operating sound.
If there’s a dedicated audio person and sound is fed to camera either by cable or by wireless hop, it is theoretically out of the camera op’s hands. However, I have been in plenty of situations where something has intervened. The camera op has a brain fart and flips a switch or bumps a dial and screws something up. Or the camera op disconnects to go grab a shot with camera mic and ends up resetting everything. Or they just decide to play creative genius with the sound. Stuff happens, and as long as someone else is holding the device that controls the last gain stage before recording, it’s more likely to happen.
I have shot plenty of OMB projects where I use a separate recorder, sometimes with a scratch track fed to camera and often without. Maybe that comes from being a sound guy first. It works for me, though, and is a system that I much prefer.
As for other issues with in-camera audio, I have worked projects with much larger, much more expensive cameras that are simply audio hell in one way or another. RED has always come up with the most ridiculous solutions for sound (1/8” TRS?!) going all the way back to the destined-to-be-broken-in-action TA-3F inputs on RED ONE. We have also gone from the old days of analog VU meters (U-Matic and BetaSP) and then proper LCD meters (BetaSP and DigiBeta) that the audio op could monitor outside of handheld work, to on-screen meters that often don’t even have proper dB values marked on them. I hate color-coded meters - or worse, monochrome meters - that have only a single hatch mark somewhere or only give you a guesstimate from green to yellow to red. A dedicated sound recorder gives me much better metering.
Regarding 24-bit audio, I use it routinely now even if I don’t need it. For people who aren’t sound people, though, it’s a great safeguard against lower recording levels.
Personally, I wouldn’t recommend anything in the handheld line of recorders at all. They’re clumsy for bag use and even moreso for trying to mount on a camera with wireless receivers and other contraptions. The solution I have found best for OMB operation is a smaller recorder on a chest harness.
For inexpensive recorders that fit this bill, your options are limited but not bad. Since you’ve specified that you’re only using this while your camera is on a gimbal, I assume that XLR outputs to camera don’t matter. So the first question is how many inputs you need. And if you’re using a Steadicam with vest, the chest harness may not be practical but a wrap with shoulder strap will still keep it close.
The DR-60DmkII and DR-70D are your cheapest options, with 2 and 4 inputs respectively. There is a DR-701D that offers time code, but a) do you really need time code (not really) and b) the time code on that unit drifts like a plastic bottle at sea without being constantly fed with a sync unit.
The Sound Devices MixPre-3 and MixPre-6 cost more, but have much better pre-amps and are still very compact. They can utilize time code if you have a sync system, but again you probably don’t need that. And if you aren’t using it, keep the TC function turned off because they can only run at 30fps if they’re on their own.
So the next question to answer is if you just want a nearly-disposable cheapie that you won’t use very often (DR-60DmkII and DR-70D) or if you want to invest in something more robust that will be a solid performer outside of Steadicam situations (MixPre-3 or -6).
Any of these options, by the way, will eat AA batteries for lunch. Look at external powering options. All of them can run off USB backup batteries. The MixPre-3 and -6 can run off dual Sony L-series batteries with the optional MX-LMount battery sled.
Felipe Henao
Well-known member
There is recorder from Marantz that judging by the 2 Channel interface that I own, should be better than any of the similarly priced recorders
is the PMD-706 6-Channel Recorder, The build and sound are Great.
is the PMD-706 6-Channel Recorder, The build and sound are Great.
David Evans
Well-known member
Alex,
I would be using this in narrative projects with dedicated sound guy. For run and gun, i record to camera.
The thing is, I love using the MM1 and I see two choices:
1- sell the MM1 and get a mix pre 3 (I think it still has a line out through mini jack?)
2- keep the excelent MM1 and buy a recorder that simply... records. I must say I'm more of a cinematographer than a sound guy, so I may be speaking without proper knowledge, but ideal scenario would be to use the MM1 to amplify the signal and then use a recorder to just record that signal. No preamps, just record the signal. Isn't this possible?
I would be using this in narrative projects with dedicated sound guy. For run and gun, i record to camera.
The thing is, I love using the MM1 and I see two choices:
1- sell the MM1 and get a mix pre 3 (I think it still has a line out through mini jack?)
2- keep the excelent MM1 and buy a recorder that simply... records. I must say I'm more of a cinematographer than a sound guy, so I may be speaking without proper knowledge, but ideal scenario would be to use the MM1 to amplify the signal and then use a recorder to just record that signal. No preamps, just record the signal. Isn't this possible?
David Evans
Well-known member
Alex,
I would be using this in narrative projects with dedicated sound guy. For run and gun, i record to camera.
The thing is, I love using the MM1 and I see two choices:
1- sell the MM1 and get a mix pre 3 (I think it still has a line out through mini jack?)
2- keep the excelent MM1 and buy a recorder that simply... records. I must say I'm more of a cinematographer than a sound guy, so I may be speaking without proper knowledge, but ideal scenario would be to use the MM1 to amplify the signal and then use a recorder to just record that signal. No preamps, just record the signal. Isn't this possible?
I would be using this in narrative projects with dedicated sound guy. For run and gun, i record to camera.
The thing is, I love using the MM1 and I see two choices:
1- sell the MM1 and get a mix pre 3 (I think it still has a line out through mini jack?)
2- keep the excelent MM1 and buy a recorder that simply... records. I must say I'm more of a cinematographer than a sound guy, so I may be speaking without proper knowledge, but ideal scenario would be to use the MM1 to amplify the signal and then use a recorder to just record that signal. No preamps, just record the signal. Isn't this possible?
Honestly? If you have a dedicated sound person, the convenience of having an integrated mixer/recorder is a better option. The MM-1 is a fine piece of gear that has been in use on big-budget sets for years. An integrated device offers a much more streamlined setup in the bag and eliminates a cable interface that can go bad.
Yes, the MixPre-3 and -6 have unbalanced line-out on 1/8” TRS.
I’ve been in the situation before that I have hesitated to get rid of a perfectly good piece of gear just because I loved that piece of gear. At some point, realizing it may not be the thing you need even if it’s really good at what it does opens the way forward.
I’d also argue that you’re investing in something that should be longterm. Go for solid and robust. The thing about those little Tascam recorders is that they’re essentially toys. They’re highly functional toys, but still toys. I keep a DR-60DmkII around because there are times I need to record audio in a risky (to the equipment) scenario, but it’s by no means my primary recording device. The Marantz that Felipe mentioned is in that same category, though I have no direct experience with it and cannot comment on features or pre-amp quality. On paper, it looks like a formidable opponent to the DR-70D.
Since you do work with a sound person... is it always the same person? Is that person knowledgable and experienced? Have you asked what they prefer?