Challenger to P2

[Gibby]

I believe Rush said I was 6th or 7th on the EVS list. But my current film is bankrupting me so I won't know for a few weeks (depending on fundraising) if I will be able to order.

If you’re budget-challenged, you need to broaden you skill sets and marketing approaches to generate the capital you need to finance your working in the production area that is your primary interest. It’s always better to generate income than borrow funds. I produce in television, video, web, and disk technologies. When it makes sense I also produce commercials, high-end business videos, and PSAs. My core passion is documentaries. I do all those other types of productions to broaden my knowledge and skills, increase my income, and then use those generated funds to be able to finance my own documentaries. Its fine to pursue your passion to be an indie filmmaker, but you may have to work in some other skill sets periodically in order to be able to then do your indies.

Nope - you misread my post. P2 Varicam will save the cost of the deck but Panny will have other models throughout the range of prices.

And a CF reader will save the cost of a deck just the same. And why will Panasonic have models throughout the range of prices? One word: competition. There is a growing market for affordable HD production for television and film. This market lies right above the HVX market. Shortly after GV announced the Infinity, Sony announced the XDCAM-HD, and online tech boards like DVXUser began speculation about a “Varicam II”, and other “above the HVX” affordable HD options. Again, its supply and demand. There’s a huge demand for affordable HD camera bodies between $18k and $25k. Right now there is no cameras on the market in that category. The XDCAM-HD, with MPEG2 @ 35 Mb/s will simply not compete with the Infinity’s JPEG2000 HD @ 75/100 Mb/s. Panasonic has to produce a competitor for the Infinity of lose out on first-mover status in that cost space.

Strange that you say this since you started the original thread yourself? Now I'm really confused.

If you’re confused, go back to the original thread and read each of my posts, starting with Post #1. Again: at no point in that entire thread was my position Infinity/Rev vs. HVX/P2. My consistent point throughout the thread was Infinity/Rev/CF cost & workflow vs. HVX/P2/Firestore/tape cost & workflow.

You can say it all you like but perception is what counts. You clearly think the Infinity, Rev and CF is superior to P2 tech. You are willing to go to incredible lengths to "prove" your point and shoot down anyone who disagrees or has a different perspective. That = fanboy in my book.

Actually, I use Panasonic equipment almost daily - Varicam down to DVX. I’m buying an HVX and two 8GB, and a Firestore. That doesn’t stop me from questioning Panasonic’s camera feature decisions and suggesting other options. If they listen to small indie producers, they should really listen to someone with a resume like mine. You can review my background by clicking on the link to my web site that is at the bottom of each of my posts. I’ve gone to the same “incredible lengths” to prove points on other tech boards for and against other manufacturers equipment – Sony, JVC, Ikegami, etc. I’ve also done the same in articles I have written for film and video trade magazines. Most equipment manufacturing executives and magazine editors listen well when I give them my opinions. It’s only on “prosumer” tech boards that inexperienced filmmakers take offense at my comments.

I admit to be a DVX fanboy - it suits me and my creative workflow really well. The only things I would change are getting rid of tape, full-rez 16:9 and maybe HD. Assuming the HVX images and construction match well with the specs, it looks like a great upgrade for me. If not, I will wait.

Though I also owned multiple high-end cameras, I bought a DVX100 when it was first released, and a DVX100A when it was first released. I’ve used both of them extensively on location in various areas of the world. When the DVX look” was needed in productions myself or my shooters have used the DVX. DVX footage has been included in about 75 0f the 700+ national television programs I’ve produced, directed, or been DP for.

I will use the HVX in a wide variety of my productions: national television (reality and documentaries), commercials, business videos, HD & SD stock footage, and many, many more uses.


--------------------------------------------------------------


I have 27 years experience in national television, I’m a national and regional Emmy judge, a multiple Emmy winner as a producer/director/DP, a writer of production tech articles for multiple video and film magazines, and a newly-invited member of the Board of Directors for an international film festival. You would expect someone at that point in their career to have well-defined opinions on media industry matters, wouldn’t you? I do, and I’m not afraid to state my opinion, back it up, and debate it.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

Gibby:

You are beating this horse into a mushy pulpy goo. I'm not going to go line by line, blow by blow in some silly debate about all this stuff anymore because you seem to miss the obvious and get wrapped up in minutia

You are responding to my posts as if I'm trying to speak for other buyers/shooters/ the universe etc. As I've tried to state over and over again - my responses are just for me as in indie filmmaker.

Have you ever heard the old joke about add the phrase "in bed" to any sentence, especially after reading a fortune cookie? Just add "for me" to all of my statements.

I'm not an "Emmy award winning national TV producer" and have zero aspirations to do so. The DVX (for sure) and the HVX (probably) are not aimed at your market. The Infinity is.

I don't want Panasonic to mess with the DVX/HVX series as it's made of primarily for us low budget hacks. Changing the HVX or adding a new model will increase Panasonics costs, delay developments etc. They simply used tech they already had (P2) and brought it downstairs to the prosumer world so we could get DVCPro-HD without a tape drive.

I'm not an idiot and realize that plenty of people use mid range cameras (1/3" and 2/3" cams with interchangeable lenses) and it works wonderfully "for them". It does not "for me".

Pages of rebuttals from you are not going to make me change my mind (and career path) just so I can use a $30K+ camera setup and feel like a pro.

The Infinity Rev Pro/CF will not work for me (nor would any 2/3" inch camera). The DVX100a does. The HVX200 might as long as it gets a cheap as I think it it will.

Just because it does not work for me, that does not mean you need to question everything I say and prove it "wrong" by some standards you have for your gear.

You also continually imply that you are "better" than us because you have all this experience, reputation and money to buy lots of gear. So why do you care so much about the half pro/ half prosumer HVX200?

Most people here have a DVX and maybe another camera. That's the target market for the DVX and probably the HVX. Sure, some companies like yours may pick up one as a lark for a B camera, but that's not how Panny is going to move thousands of them.

It's people like me and the majority of this board and similar board that buy these cams. That's a fact.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

I re-read the PR stuff on the GV camera. It specifically staes no 24p. Is this not a deal killer? I love the idea of the camer overall but screw doing 24p in post with a 3:2 pulldown filter. Am I missing something. Is GV insane not to include this? Both Sony and Panny added a 24p upgrade to their XDcam and 800 respectivly when they relized that was a big issue.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[The Machinist]

Maybe GV intends this camera to be used mainly for HD broadcast material. In which case there's not much reason or need for 24p. No sense in throwing in a feature that you consider superfluous if its not a need of your target market.

Not to say that i consider 24p superfluous. Its just that may have been the point of view GV has taken with the infiniti.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

Maybe GV intends this camera to be used mainly for HD broadcast material. In which case there's not much reason or need for 24p. No sense in throwing in a feature that you consider superfluous if its not a need of your target market.

Not to say that i consider 24p superfluous. Its just that may have been the point of view GV has taken with the infiniti.

You mean 60i sports kinda stuff? I totally get that. I just thought the 24p would be easy enough to add. GV says their chip set will do 720 60p. I guess that means progressive. I wonder if it's native progressive? Don't they understand that HD 720 60p using 2/3" chips and changeable lenses is essentially a vari-cam? Even at 30k with a entry level HD lense makes it a great price point. Could be exciting.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[stabwound]

I don't want Panasonic to mess with the DVX/HVX series as it's made of primarily for us low budget hacks. Changing the HVX or adding a new model will increase Panasonics costs, delay developments etc. They simply used tech they already had (P2) and brought it downstairs to the prosumer world so we could get DVCPro-HD without a tape drive.

I'm not an idiot and realize that plenty of people use mid range cameras (1/3" and 2/3" cams with interchangeable lenses) and it works wonderfully "for them". It does not "for me".

Pages of rebuttals from you are not going to make me change my mind (and career path) just so I can use a $30K+ camera setup and feel like a pro.

The Infinity Rev Pro/CF will not work for me (nor would any 2/3" inch camera). The DVX100a does. The HVX200 might as long as it gets a cheap as I think it it will.

Just because it does not work for me, that does not mean you need to question everything I say and prove it "wrong" by some standards you have for your gear.

You also continually imply that you are "better" than us because you have all this experience, reputation and money to buy lots of gear. So why do you care so much about the half pro/ half prosumer HVX200?

Exactly my sentiments, and eloquently stated.

Boy, if I could only write like that! :thumbsup:

Just gimme the HVX200 as is (assuming a terrific image), on time in December, a chop on the P2 prices, and Panasonic has a happy customer!

I'm sure by next year Panasonic will have an lens interchangeable, 2/3rds, HDV, VHS-C compatible, cupholding, etc. for those more demanding users with larger wallets.

HVX200 is perfect 'cos larger wallet I ain't got.

 

[robo3687]

forgive me if this has been addressed but it's just something I need a clarification on...

concerning the FireStore for use with the HVX...is it able to replace the P2 cards? or does it feed the video through the P2 cards and onto the FireStore?

 

[Rush]

Hi robo, it will replace the P2 cards. You can buy just the firestore. It will be about the same price of a current 8GB card.

 

[robo3687]

thanks for that rush...see that makes me greatly consider getting a firestore instead of the P2 cards.......cos i think you are able to get like 100 mins of DVCPRO HD on one, 200 mins of DVCPRO 50 and 400 mins of DVCPRO 25.....

which a bit more enticing to me than 20 mins over 2 cards.....

sure theres the moving parts stuff....but i can live with that...

 

[The Engineer]

It just struck me... Everyone that plans to buy a HVX is looking also at a Firestore unit. In other words, everyone is keen to put the faith of their (unique/ireplaceable) footage into the "hands" of a hard drive. Why the opposition to the infinity solution? It has exactly the same chance to go south as any other HDD, read Firestore...

 

[robo3687]

for me its not a case of 'putting my faith' in a firestore.....its simply just the fact of price vs capacity....

 

[stephenvv]

HVX200 is perfect 'cos larger wallet I ain't got.

That's elegant enough for me and say it all. :laugh:

 

[stephenvv]

It just struck me... Everyone that plans to buy a HVX is looking also at a Firestore unit. In other words, everyone is keen to put the faith of their (unique/ireplaceable) footage into the "hands" of a hard drive. Why the opposition to the infinity solution? It has exactly the same chance to go south as any other HDD, read Firestore...

I'm not that interested in a Firestore especially if I can get my laptop with a 7200 RPM drive to capture in the field.

What? You don't want read pages of posts arguing about the Infinity vs. the universe? :shocked:

But to your point, the Infinity design requires removing the tape drive from the HVX200, inserting a Rev Pro drive, removing the P2 cards and using CF instead. You will need to purchase at least one more Rev Pro drive to read the disks (or use the camera as drive).

I can't see this making the HVX cheaper, ligher, quieter or arrive sooner, nor do I want Panny spending engineering time redesigned the HVX or adding a Rev Pro model.

If they want, just add a slot for 2.5. laptop drive in the future when laptop drives are fast and have enough buffer to handle all the rates. - that's much simpler cheaper than either Firestore or Infinity.

But right now and for the HVX200a/b - the design looks nearly perfect. If it ain't broke...

 

[Gibby]

Stephen:

Gibby:

You are beating this horse into a mushy pulpy goo. I'm not going to go line by line, blow by blow in some silly debate about all this stuff anymore because you seem to miss the obvious and get wrapped up in minutia.

Someone on this new thread felt the need to bring up the original thread, and you felt the need to jump in to continue our previous debate. You’re not going to continue this “silly debate” because I’ve countered your flimsy arguments with much more research-based counter arguments.

You are responding to my posts as if I'm trying to speak for other buyers/shooters/ the universe etc. As I've tried to state over and over again - my responses are just for me as in indie filmmaker.

DVX User has members and users from a lot more sectors of the motion media industry than indie filmmakers. I’m speaking from my background, which I’ve illustrated for you. The needs of my portions of the media industry are different than indie filmmakers.

I'm not an "Emmy award winning national TV producer" and have zero aspirations to do so. The DVX (for sure) and the HVX (probably) are not aimed at your market. The Infinity is.

In looking through your web site you don’t seem to be an award-winning indie filmmaker either. Maybe listening to people with a lot more media experience than you would do you some good. You’re wrong about DVX use in television production. It is used widely in the television industry, and not just for 24p or 30p. As an example, check the latest issue of TV Technology magazine, Page 8, describing how a company producing a national series on race car drivers are using DVX100A’s in tandem with SDX900’s for their series. The HVX will be purchased by television production companies by the truckload. Dramatic and episodic TV productions will use the HVX as a B camera for Varicam and SDX900 productions. Sports and reality TV productions will use the HVX in 720p60 as a primary camera for ENG-style acquisition. Stock footage shooters will use the HVX in 1080p24 and 720p24 to acquire HD stock. And on and on. Indie film producers will obviously use the HVX, but they are only one portion of the overall users. Since TV industry companies are large and can buy cameras in large lots, it is quite feasible that the TV/video production industry will be the largest segment of HVX purchasers in terms of HVX’s bought.

I don't want Panasonic to mess with the DVX/HVX series as it's made of primarily for us low budget hacks. Changing the HVX or adding a new model will increase Panasonics costs, delay developments etc. They simply used tech they already had (P2) and brought it downstairs to the prosumer world so we could get DVCPro-HD without a tape drive.

“Low budget hacks” – you said it. I do want several different equipment options for the HVX, and a large portion of professionals in my end of the media industry would agree.

I'm not an idiot and realize that plenty of people use mid range cameras (1/3" and 2/3" cams with interchangeable lenses) and it works wonderfully "for them". It does not "for me".

Then stop acting like one. ½” and 2/3” interchangeable lens cameras are far and away the norm for most working professionals. If you don’t fall in that category, what can I say.

Pages of rebuttals from you are not going to make me change my mind (and career path) just so I can use a $30K+ camera setup and feel like a pro.

You’re the one who admitted being budget-challenged, and I gave you some ideas for using your DVX to generate some more income. $30k cameras don’t make pros – but true pros generate enough income to have the option to buy and use what they want.

The Infinity Rev Pro/CF will not work for me (nor would any 2/3" inch camera). The DVX100a does. The HVX200 might as long as it gets a cheap as I think it it will.

Fine. The Infinity will not work for you, as it won’t for most small indie filmmakers – but you are just one small segment of the motion media industry and the Infinity will work extremely well for many other portions of the motion media industry.

Just because it does not work for me, that does not mean you need to question everything I say and prove it "wrong" by some standards you have for your gear.

When you make bold, un-researched, un-experienced statements it shouldn’t surprise you when someone call you on it.

You also continually imply that you are "better" than us because you have all this experience, reputation and money to buy lots of gear. So why do you care so much about the half pro/ half prosumer HVX200?

If you’re going to argue with someone, you might as well know who you’re arguing with. If you weren’t stuck in your little “indie filmmaker” cubbyhole, and had more knowledge of how the overall motion media industry works, you’d realize that the real successful producers/directors/ and DP’s now use, research, understand, rent, or buy equipment of all formats an costs. Huge portions of television programming and video productions are now produced by professionals using “prosumer” equipment.


Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

…the Infinity design requires removing the tape drive from the HVX200, inserting a Rev Pro drive, removing the P2 cards and using CF instead. You will need to purchase at least one more Rev Pro drive to read the disks (or use the camera as drive).

P2 cards would not have to be replaced by CF. Why would Panasonic offer CF cards instead of their P2?

I can't see this making the HVX cheaper, ligher, quieter or arrive sooner, nor do I want Panny spending engineering time redesigned the HVX or adding a Rev Pro model. )

Tape drives don’t cost any more than Rev drives, they aren’t lighter, and they aren’t quieter. I do want Panasonic to offer Rev option model.

…If they want, just add a slot for 2.5. laptop drive in the future when laptop drives are fast and have enough buffer to handle all the rates. - that's much simpler cheaper than either Firestore or Infinity. ).

Stationary, on-set production is one thing, but laptops are useless in a mobile production scenario. Even a Firestore is not feasible in true mobile production, where it can get knocked off, A unibody camera enables true mobile production.

But right now and for the HVX200a/b - the design looks nearly perfect. If it ain't broke...

Maybe perfect for small indie productions, but other features would enhance it for the many other kinds of production the HVX will be used for.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

I re-read the PR stuff on the GV camera. It specifically staes no 24p. Is this not a deal killer? I love the idea of the camer overall but screw doing 24p in post with a 3:2 pulldown filter. Am I missing something. Is GV insane not to include this? Both Sony and Panny added a 24p upgrade to their XDcam and 800 respectivly when they relized that was a big issue.

Cheers,
Chris

If 24p is your primary production mode, the Infinity may not be for you. Although as I previously noted, the Nattress filters should do an unreal job of easily converting Infinity to 24p in post. I would guess that the follow-up model to the Infinity will be 24p cabable.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

Exactly my sentiments, and eloquently stated.

Boy, if I could only write like that! :thumbsup:

Just gimme the HVX200 as is (assuming a terrific image), on time in December, a chop on the P2 prices, and Panasonic has a happy customer!

I'm sure by next year Panasonic will have an lens interchangeable, 2/3rds, HDV, VHS-C compatible, cupholding, etc. for those more demanding users with larger wallets.

HVX200 is perfect 'cos larger wallet I ain't got.

Yeah, that's some real impressive writing alright! He doesn't substantiate his opinions with research or broad experience, is niched in one tiny corner of the morion media industry, and when backed into a corner by convincing arguments, he resorts to ludicrous "the DVX and HVX are only for indies" agruments.

While you guys are planning you next going indie films and spending copious amounts of time debating tech online, I'll be using everything from a DVX to an HVX to a Varicam to generate solid income and projects that reach millions.

It's the larger media producers that use DVX's and soon-to-be HVX's in high profile national media projects that get the publicity that Panasonic uses to drive the sales of their products. The DVX is not a "prosumer" camera, and the HVX won't be either. Professionals use or will use these cameras widely. Without professionals using and buying small form-factor cameras, those cameras wouldn't even exist. If you keep a "smaller wallet" vs. "larger wallet" mentality, you'll simply have a smaller wallet while others with more open minds progressively steal your clients or produce the projects you can't afford to make. It's OK to be a small indie guy, but it solves nothing for you when you justify your smallness by taking potshots at others who started out small, worked hard, stayed on top of technology, and grew to be bigger.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

Gibby:

You appear to take delight in insulting me, my filmmaking career, my knowledge, experience and clearly positioning yourself as smarter, wiser, more well-informed when you don't really know anyone here, me for sure, that well, if at all.

Worse, you claim to speak for large groups of people rather than just yourself. You frequently misquote, quote out of context and misrepresent what people say, especially the context is it delivered in.

That's the reasons I'm no longer engaging you in any conversation. You clearly lack any respect for me as person - so conversation is over.

I only speak for myself. I don't pretend to have all answers and have no need to always be right.

You can either listen to my perspective (and the others here) and decide that you might actually learn something every once in awhile or you can continue to lecture us ad infinitum and ask us to bathe in the magnificence of your deity.

Let me close with just one little tidbit amongst the many that you just posted that illustrates this all:

You wrote:

Stationary, on-set production is one thing, but laptops are useless in a mobile production scenario

.

Well, I wish I would have know that otherwise I would not have used a laptop for my last 4 short films. Stupid me...yeah, I had a tape running just in case, but a wise Emmy-Award winning producer said laptops are useless in mobile production, so clearly I must be wrong....Yes, a laptop is a mobile computer, but still, he said they are "useless".

I guess i need to reshoot those films....

 

[Gibby]

It just struck me... Everyone that plans to buy a HVX is looking also at a Firestore unit. In other words, everyone is keen to put the faith of their (unique/ireplaceable) footage into the "hands" of a hard drive. Why the opposition to the infinity solution? It has exactly the same chance to go south as any other HDD, read Firestore...

No doubt. When I take delivery of my HVX next month I have to not only buy two 8 GB P2 cards (I definately need them), but I have to then decide on a medium for the long form shooting I do. If the P2 cards were 16GB or larger, long form recording wouldn't be such a problem. The P2 Store is an option, but then again I'd have something hanging on my belt. For real mobile production that's a problem. A laptop is out of the question for mobile production. A self-powered Firewire drive, kept in a backpack and used to offload the P2 cards seems to be the best solution - but since the HVX will not simultaneously output via Firewire while its recording to P2, that requires me to stop shooting, hook up the Firewire drive, and then offload the P2 footage. Not very feasible in a mobile long form recording situation. When bigger P2 cards come, the problem will go away. But for now, these questions, coupled with GV's announcement of the Infinity, led me to post the initial thread on the concept of Panasonic offering an HVX model with an option for a Rev drive to replace the tape drive.

Opposition to a Rev solution in the HVX? It has come from a few indie filmmakers. Respected DVX User gurus like Graeme Nattress have not opposed my concept throughout both of these threads. Graeme did express doubts about Iomega at the start of the original thread, but he seems to be impressed by the IT-based concepts of the Infinity and the robustness of the JPEG2000 codec. His filters support JPEG2000.

Barry Green gave no response throughout the original thread and gave this response earlier in this thread:

GrassValley specifically refers to it as "Rev PRO", so perhaps they demanded some changes to make it more rugged or reliable. I just think it's great that we're seeing more tapeless solutions come out. The ability to record footage to disk using the excellent JPEG2000 codec is just fantastic. And you don't have to go to Iomega disk, they also allow recording straight to compactflash cards too!

Jan Crittenden did speak against a Rev option in the HVX, but I would expect that. Though GV is a member of the Panasonic P2 Alliance and makes P2-compliant equipment, GV is now a competitor with Panasonic for the affordable HD $18k to $28k camera niche.

Bottom line: What I suggested is a viable way to solve the problem of on-camera tapeless storage of DVCProHD and DVCPro50 footage for mobile, long form shooters – a huge and high-profile portion of the potential market for the HVX. In the HVX, Panasonic has designed a universal camera. The frame rates, formats, and shutter speeds of the HVX enable it to be used by almost every portion of the motion media industry: features, indies, commercials, television, business video, events, and on and on. Ironically, the current recording medium options then hamstring the HVX from being able to be effectively used by some of those sectors of the media industry. Panasonic will make a lot more money, and nail the market, if they offer various models of the HVX with different recording medium options.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv