Challenger to P2

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natob2

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If you look at the newest "Studio" you will see Grassvalley and Iomega have teamed to make a tapeless recording format that records 45 minutes of 1080i HD to a disk that cost "around" $60! They have developed the whole system, camera, deck, and computer system.

That's way cheaper than P2. Is it comparably as "rugged" though? I think if grassvalley is behind it it must be pretty solid. I'm personally glad to see such competition to bring down P2 prices.
 
It's still a "disk" capable of being dropped or scratched (even though it's got a protective body), or be erased or altered by magnetic sources. That being said, yes, as an alternative, it would be nice. I've previously read about the Rev drives not being as stable as one would need them to be for our application, but as you said, if GrassValley is behind it, perhaps there is something there. Though I doubt the consumer version may be up to par.
 
GrassValley specifically refers to it as "Rev PRO", so perhaps they demanded some changes to make it more rugged or reliable. I just think it's great that we're seeing more tapeless solutions come out. The ability to record footage to disk using the exellent JPEG2000 codec is just fantastic. And you don't have to go to Iomega disk, they also allow recording straight to compactflash cards too!
 
contentlab said:
here is the thread where the iomega REV drive idea was thoroughly bashed, questioned, supported. reamed, bashed some more, etc:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=34030&highlight=iomega
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I started that thread and methodically countered each "basher" and "reamer" point for point - not with hearsay, but with research. I use Panasonic products extensively: Varicam, HDX900, DVX100A. I'm on the list to buy an HVX200 and I''ll test it out on some of my TV series. But - I also use equipment from many other manufacturers when the look of the footage from their cameras match a particular production I'm doing.

Since that thread ran its course you might have noticed other respected contributors to DVX User recently taking a "Hey, Grass Valley may have something here with this Infinity camera and JPEG2000" attitude (Barry Green, Graham Nattress, etc.). Indeed, Barry made a very positive post today at 2:27p on this very thread about the possibilities for the Infiinity camera.

Writing Iomega's REV drives off in 2005, especially the new Rev Pro that was co-engineered with Grass Valley, because "some friend of mine had a Jaz or Zip drive crash in 1999" is utterly ludicrous! Grass Valley has also publicly stated that though they have partnered with Iomega on the Rev Pro cartridges, the future of the Infinity camera is not tied to Iomega or Rev. Rather than fixate on Rev drives in the Infinity, HVX purchasers (like myself) should be more focused on the Infinity cameras use of Compact Flash. GV's introduction of camcorder use of the robust hi-def JPEG2000 codec recording to CF will help drive down the cost of P2 cards for HVX owners. How? P2 will not be the only solid state option available anymore, DVCProHD will not be the only affordable frame-independent hi-def 4:2:2 option anymore, and both of those facts will force Panasonic to compete - and competition is always good for us consumers.

The HVX hasn't been released yet, and yet its already overwhelmingly judged on this board as flawless. The GV Infinity hasn't been released yet, and yet many users of this board have harsh criticism for it. REV cartridges have been in use by graphic designers for over a year now, with solid dependability ratings - and yet they're judged as junk by many users of this board because "Iomega sucks", "I had a Zip drive fail me in 2001", or other comments irrelevant to Rev drives. Did you see anyone on that entire thread, outside of myself, say that themselves or their staff had used Rev drives? No. So it follows that nobody on that thread had a bad experience with a Rev drive to present. And yet there are comments like "Iomega sucks" ad naseum.

Can we call ourselves bonifide techies if our minds are so narrow that if we fell on a pin we'd poke out both of our eyes?!? It's absurd to write off technology that hasn't even been released or tested yet (HVX & Infinity). It’s even more absurd to write off technology that has been released, tested, and has proven itself reliable (Rev).

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
I think the Rev PRO looks interesting.....I'd still take prefer P2 though. :D

P2 is proven and a lot more stable and durable, and reliable(RAID array).

Maybe Rev PRO will be like the miniDV tape of the future: cheap and dependible for most uses, but if given the choice, use something better.

who knows.
 
My only thoughts are, how are they fitting 35GB onto a disk!?!? It's magnetic based, right? How's that possible that we have a magnetic based disk that rival's BluRay's storage capacity using lasers?

i'm confused....
 
FatBird19 said:
My only thoughts are, how are they fitting 35GB onto a disk!?!? It's magnetic based, right? How's that possible that we have a magnetic based disk that rival's BluRay's storage capacity using lasers?
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I believe it's essentially a removable hard drive in a protective housing, like the Iomega Jaz. Also, another feature that distinguishes the Rev PRO from the base Rev is that the former has a higher throughput, one more suitable to recording HD.
 
kai said:
dude easy there gibby. happy thoughts.
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No worries Kai. I had some strong input on that, I vented, and felt better afterwards. It's all good. Happy thoughts here!

When all is said and done, we're all one family under the media convergence banner - no fences, no barriers...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
The data storage method may be a concern, but it's still a 2/3 inch HD progressive camera with a list price only $2k more than the SPX800, which makes it pretty attractive. Hopefully FCP will add support for JPEG2000. I also hope it puts pressure on Panasonic to bring down the costs of their 2/3 inch HD cameras.
--Jeremy
 
snarton said:
Hopefully FCP will add support for JPEG2000. I also hope it puts pressure on Panasonic to bring down the costs of their 2/3 inch HD cameras.
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I asked Graham Nattress his thoughts about NLE support for JPEG2000. He replied that FCP5 already supports JPEG2000, and other NLE's may also. The only question is if there is wrapper support in NLE's for JPEG200. JPEG2000 has been in use for digital still image production for a few years now. It is fully supported by Photoshop, so it wouldn't surprise me if other Adobe products also supported JPEG2000. You can rest assured that with GV's announcement of the Infinity using JPEG2000 that by the next NAB every NLE manufacturer will be announcing support for JPEG2000.

Back to Nattress. Graham told me that his plugins support JPEG2000. That's awesome, because his plugins are exceptional tools. The Infinity doesn't shoot 24p, but with the Nattress plugins, there is a great way to achieve 24p from the JPEG2000 footage. For all you "Indie types", JPEG2000 is already the international standard for digital cinema projection.

I don't see how the Sony XDCAM-HD, at the same price point as an Infinity, and being MPEG2/35mb/s/ 1/2" CCD's, can compete with the Infinity's intraframe JPEG2000/75-100 mb/s/2/3" CCD's. Panasonic has to bring out a camera to compete with the Infinity or give up some of the "between the Varicam and HVX" market share for affordable hi-definition production. The Infinity will be sub-$20k (body), and a used 2/3" HD lens can be found for around $8k. Under $30k for an operational multi-format, multi-resolution, scalable, intraframe, 4:2:2 camera that uses affordable media.

I'll be stoked to get my HVX200. It will be used heavily in my productions. I'm looking hard at the Infinity as the "A" camera in my in-house equipment, with the HVX being the "B" camera - probably a perfect match up. If Panasonic san bring out a camera in the Infinity's price range, that has the similar features as the Infinity, I may very well vote with my dollars and make that Panasonic camera my "A" camera, rather than the Infinity.

The ball is in your court Panasonic...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
Gibby said:
Writing Iomega's REV drives off in 2005, especially the new Rev Pro that was co-engineered with Grass Valley, because "some friend of mine had a Jaz or Zip drive crash in 1999" is utterly ludicrous!
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and yet they're judged as junk by many users of this board because "Iomega sucks", "I had a Zip drive fail me in 2001", or other comments irrelevant to Rev drives. Did you see anyone on that entire thread, outside of myself, say that themselves or their staff had used Rev drives? No. So it follows that nobody on that thread had a bad experience with a Rev drive to present. And yet there are comments like "Iomega sucks" ad naseum.
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Gibby, you've got a lot of passion, and you make a lot of good points. And yeah, it could be possible that despite Iomega's track record, this thing is a winner.

But someone who has had a number of Iomega drives fail miserably might well be justified in putting a pretty high burden of proof on Iomega before signing on to a new product. Mentioning a company's performance history is certainly valid.
 
David Jimerson said:
Gibby, you've got a lot of passion, and you make a lot of good points. And yeah, it could be possible that despite Iomega's track record, this thing is a winner.

But someone who has had a number of Iomega drives fail miserably might well be justified in putting a pretty high burden of proof on Iomega before signing on to a new product. Mentioning a company's performance history is certainly valid.
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Very good point! My point was that me and my graphic designers have had very dependable service from Rev disks, the other designers we've talked with have reported the same, and nobody in the thread that was brought up claimed to have had bad dependability specifically from Rev disks. Let me give you an analogy: If I stated on this board that all Panasonic P2 cards were garbage and undependable because I had a dependability problem in previous use of a Panasonic media product (MII or VHS tape for example), I'd be instantly flamed to death. Let's get current. The question at hand is Rev disk dependability. If someone out there has had a dependability issue with a Rev disk to counter the dependable service my company has had, let's hear about it.

The X factor is that my company's good experience with Rev disks has been with the regular Rev disks. The new Rev Pro disks were co-engineered with Grass Valley, have higher specs than the ones we've used, and have not been field tested in the non-existent Infinity camera or Rev deck. When the camera, deck, and Rev Pro disks are all released and field tested, then educated opinions on the utility and dependability of the Rev Pro disks can be formed. Until then, it's all just conjecture, so to currently write them off as "undependable" makes no sense.

I also had problems with Zip drives in the late '90's, but I'll keep an open mind on Rev Pro until the real world testing has been done using the Infinity camera.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
You never know what Iomega will pull out of it's hat with GrassValley's partnership. Of course, I doubt it will be brought to the consumer side, and will most likely stay a GrassValley piece of the puzzle.
 
Hello everyone, just my 2c here: Infinity will NEVER be a prosumer product - it will probably fit in the "PROAV" line Grass Valley has initiated with the Turbo servers. What I mean is this product range will never compete with HVX200. As for the touted reliability of P2 cards, I invite anyone to drop a small rock or other object not too heavy that you normally handle during your work on a P2 card. now look at the dent in the body of the P2 card - there's a very good chance you have shorted something inside... Stop blaming other technologies before trying them or at least read some reviews. Rev might be a big thing or just another unreliable Iomega crap - we don't know yet.
 
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