Canon's Upcoming RF cinema camera rumored specs

puredrifting said:
Are your clients really that noise averse or are YOU that noise averse? Just curious.
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Personally, I like a little fine noise/grain in my images. But I've had been dinged more than once for a less than perfectly pristine image (now that I think of it, it was mostly from one director I used to work with). I try not open myself up to it. And my C200 has some fixed pattern noise visible at ISO 800. Some may be fine with it. I'm not.

NorBro said:
It's only some of the "artists" in charge whom take themselves and their video production jobs way too seriously that like things done a very certain way and/or may find issues with various randomness.
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Not sure if you're talking about producers/creative directors/stakeholders, shooters, or me in particular (it fits more than I'd like).

The general point I am trying to make is that CRL on the C200 is kind of noisy. For those who find the same, the C70 might be a better option.
 
Not you, just in general.

Haven't really looked into the C70, but it will probably be cleaner (besides having newer technology/hardware) because it will have noise reduction vs. C200's CRL and no noise reduction (or very little, or having an older process/tech).
 
A raw file does not have noise reduction. NR is a process - raw is free of processes - it would be assumed that one noise reduces to taste in post.

(something that should be 'instant' with once you have made yourself a few 'looks')

Most noisy raw is a resulat of underexposure.
 
At least from these tests of the C300 Mark III, it seems like the dual-gain output (DGO) modes of the sensor (up to 60 fps) do have a fair bit less noise than the non-DGO mode used at 120 fps (tests begin about 3 minutes or so into the video):


And the DGO modes also seem to be cleaner in the shadows than even the C500 Mark II (which lacks DGO). In those tests there also didn't seem to be a huge difference between XF-AVC and RAW at least in the shadows. By default in the C300 Mark III, noise reduction is turned off (even in XF-AVC modes) although you can enable noise reduction levels between 1 and 12 if desired. In the C500 Mark II, the default noise reduction setting is level 1.

Obviously the C70 is a different camera, so there could be some processing differences even though the sensor is supposedly the same as in the C300 Mark III.
 
morgan_moore said:
A raw file does not have noise reduction. NR is a process - raw is free of processes - it would be assumed that one noise reduces to taste in post.

(something that should be 'instant' with once you have made yourself a few 'looks')

Most noisy raw is a resulat of underexposure.
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Yes, but just as all sensors are different, not all raw files are the same. They have different noise signatures. For instance, the BlackMagic Production Camera 4K raw suffered from fixed pattern noise at all ISOs.
 
QuickHitRecord said:
Personally, I like a little fine noise/grain in my images. But I've had been dinged more than once for a less than perfectly pristine image (now that I think of it, it was mostly from one director I used to work with). I try not open myself up to it. And my C200 has some fixed pattern noise visible at ISO 800. Some may be fine with it. I'm not.
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I'm with you. If others are comfortable with the noise profile of C200 CRL files at ISO 800+ that's all good. We have different tolerances. For me noise in the shadows at ISO800 and above on the C200 isn't pretty or organic, it's just dirty. The image responds very well to Neat Video but that's quite time intensive.

For me it's not so much about the client (I agree they're generally not bothered) - I just personally don't find the image satisfying when the shadows are bouncing around. I generally shot at ISO 400 on the C200; this brings the noise down to an acceptable level in most instances, quite a pleasing texture.

I now have the C300mkIII and with DGO enabled the difference is plain to see. ISO 800 on the C300mkIII is easily cleaner than ISO 400 on the C200.

That said, I love the C200 image and in terms of outright image quality would prefer CRL files from the C200 (cleaned up) over 10bit XFAVC on the C300mkIII. The CRL files are more detailed and don't suffer from compression artifacts.

I may pick up a C70 at some point as a b-cam because it's small, the AF is great, XFAVC is efficient and fast to work with, battery life is great and the adaptor sounds appealing; but I suspect if you've got the time and space to work with CRL files the C200 will still be capable of a better image simply because of codec limitations with XFAVC.

One other quick observation (that I assume will apply to the C70). The C300mkIII image is sharper than the C200. Whereas I would always apply a touch of sharpening in post C200 CRL files generally don't add anything to CRL files from the C300mkIII sensor. I'm not a sharpness / resolution freak so the difference is neither here nor there to me, but it's there. If anything the C300mkIII is a little too sharp for my preferences (and I'll likely add diffusion for personal projects). In my brief time with it I've noticed aliasing (on rooftops in sunlight) and a touch of moire (on fine garments) more than once, which I don't recall ever experiencing with the C200.
 
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NorBro said:
Yeah, I find most people are actually pretty easy to please. As long as the picture is "clear" and "bright" (as they say), and the sound is good, you're 90% there.

It's only some of the "artists" in charge whom take themselves and their video production jobs way too seriously that like things done a very certain way and/or may find issues with various randomness.
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What?! You mean your clients don't run your footage through IMATEST to check your SNR before they pay you??? (Jk)
 
This discussion has brought up some interesting points about who drives the sales of certain products for certain features. I have always suspected that this was the factor driving the SD to HD movement and later the HD to 4K, 5K, 6K, 8K movement. I'm convinced that most of the new features driving the sales of new cameras are mostly clever marketing to a gullible audience (us).

Really almost none of the "innovations" of the past half decade in digital video have been client driven. It's all fine and good but it just cracks me up that as you read post after post here, so many of us justify buying shiny new gear "for clients", when clearly a good portion of clients, the vast majority in fact, don't even know what 4K and greater, HDR, HLG, FF, DGO, S/N ratio, FPN are. And if they did, they wouldn't care or be able to discern the difference. Looking at us objectively, we are a self-deluded lot, most of us. Most of what we shoot is consumed on crappy 4" phone screens in bad ambient lighting conditions, yet we actually sweat a lot of this stuff.

Anyway, diverging too much from the topic at hand, the C70. I am eager to see what shipping models picture looks like in real world use. The test footage looks great.
 
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DLD said:
I run IMATEST on every DVXUser post. Then use Neat Video to reduce the FPN.
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I thought this was funny when I read it. Now that I'm more awake and fully grasp the full metaphor, I think it's very funny. Well done, sir.
 
puredrifting said:
This discussion has brought up some interesting points about who drives the sales of certain products for certain features. I have always suspected that this was the factor driving the SD to HD movement and later the HD to 4K, 5K, 6K, 8K movement. I'm convinced that most of the new features driving the sales of new cameras are mostly clever marketing to a gullible audience (us).
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Maybe. Except for the full frame craze. That seemed to come pretty significantly from clients appreciating that look (when the 5dmarkII blew up). It was always more significant than more resolution.
 
puredrifting said:
..new gear "for clients", when clearly a good portion of clients, the vast majority in fact, don't even know what 4K and greater, HDR, HLG, FF, DGO, S/N ratio, FPN are. And if they did, they wouldn't care or be able to discern the difference. .
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Clients dont know until they do. For example I did a wetsuit shoot - wetsuits are very fine weave and created huge rainbowing moiree patterns across the front of the models obviously on the clients product.

Had the client heard of moiree ? No - was the client pissed off - absolutely.

All my cameras have pissed clients off. 5d - synch sound, FS100 forced to shoot at F22, F3 - I could not carry it etc.

--
Ive only been interested in upgrading when something from my current camera was unacceptable.

5d - Moiree - no ND - HDMI wobble cut recording no XLR
FS100 - No ND - sketchy highlight rolloff
F3 - Too heavy with recorder of the time
FS7 - no AF too heavy

To me on paper this C70 seems the next thing.. light and AF take it from where the FS7 left off.

Its not that it is great it is that it has fewer major failings than the previous generations. If it is great that is a (mainly irrelevant) bonus.
 
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I'm sure this has already come up with the BMP4K/audio peeps but are there off the shelf mini XLR to XLR cables longer than a few feet?

I want to go from microphone XLR to C70 without needing two adapters in the form of short cables. Or do people like the adapters?

You could leave them attached and use it as a single cable but I'd rather get rid of the extra connection.
 
rob norton said:
I'm sure this has already come up with the BMP4K/audio peeps but are there off the shelf mini XLR to XLR cables longer than a few feet?

I want to go from microphone XLR to C70 without needing two adapters in the form of short cables. Or do people like the adapters?

You could leave them attached and use it as a single cable but I'd rather get rid of the extra connection.
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Not sure how long you need, but there are some longer pre-made cables of this type out there.

Here are ones in 10 foot and 25 foot lengths:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...media_rd1_ta3m_xf_10_Mini_XLR_M_to_XLR_F.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1537927-REG/kondor_blue_kb_minixlr25_mini_xlr_male_to.html

And here are cables in lengths from 1 foot up to 100 feet:
https://www.markertek.com/product/s...pin-xlr-female-to-3-pin-mini-xlr-male-50-foot

If you need custom lengths, it's not too hard to make your own cables with a soldering iron. The 3-pin Mini XLR connector is often called TA3M, I believe this comes from the Switchcraft model number for these connectors, but Neutrik/REAN, Remote Audio, Amphenol, and a few other manufacturers also make connectors of this style nowadays. The nice thing is that they are relatively inexpensive, unlike say LEMO connectors.

And if you don't want to make your own cables, I think most of the places that make custom audio cables (Redco Audio, Gotham Sound, Pro Audio LA, etc.) should be able to make them in whatever lengths you need.
 
rob norton said:
I'm sure this has already come up with the BMP4K/audio peeps but are there off the shelf mini XLR to XLR cables longer than a few feet?

I want to go from microphone XLR to C70 without needing two adapters in the form of short cables. Or do people like the adapters?

You could leave them attached and use it as a single cable but I'd rather get rid of the extra connection.
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Personally like the short length ... long enough to bungie to my tripod so that there is no stress on either the mini connector or the camera ... the
a long Mogami fullsize of whatever length needed. I have not seen any information about how the mini's hold up over time ... would rather replace a
$15-20 short cable than send the camera in for repair.

I use these for everything these days ...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1394395-REG/think_tank_photo_964_red_whips_bungie_cable.html
 
As another option to the above bungees, I love the Bongo Ties and use them on almost every setup. In fact, I like to keep a few around my wrist on shoot days...just in case a need pops up. Plus, you get the added benefit of feeling like Johnny Depp with all the elaborate wrist decor :)
 
davedv said:
Not sure how long you need, but there are some longer pre-made cables of this type out there.

Here are ones in 10 foot and 25 foot lengths:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...media_rd1_ta3m_xf_10_Mini_XLR_M_to_XLR_F.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1537927-REG/kondor_blue_kb_minixlr25_mini_xlr_male_to.html

And here are cables in lengths from 1 foot up to 100 feet:
https://www.markertek.com/product/s...pin-xlr-female-to-3-pin-mini-xlr-male-50-foot

If you need custom lengths, it's not too hard to make your own cables with a soldering iron. The 3-pin Mini XLR connector is often called TA3M, I believe this comes from the Switchcraft model number for these connectors, but Neutrik/REAN, Remote Audio, Amphenol, and a few other manufacturers also make connectors of this style nowadays. The nice thing is that they are relatively inexpensive, unlike say LEMO connectors.

And if you don't want to make your own cables, I think most of the places that make custom audio cables (Redco Audio, Gotham Sound, Pro Audio LA, etc.) should be able to make them in whatever lengths you need.
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Thanks davedv, I wasn't looking hard enough.

docmoore said:
Personally like the short length ... long enough to bungie to my tripod so that there is no stress on either the mini connector or the camera ... the
a long Mogami fullsize of whatever length needed. I have not seen any information about how the mini's hold up over time ... would rather replace a
$15-20 short cable than send the camera in for repair.

I use these for everything these days ...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1394395-REG/think_tank_photo_964_red_whips_bungie_cable.html
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Those cable ties look handy, thanks doc.

digitalinnovations said:
As another option to the above bungees, I love the Bongo Ties and use them on almost every setup. In fact, I like to keep a few around my wrist on shoot days...just in case a need pops up. Plus, you get the added benefit of feeling like Johnny Depp with all the elaborate wrist decor :)
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I'm sure the bongoties are great, I just can't see myself using them to wrap cables. But like their description says, for bundling unruly items so I'm sure you'd find new uses constantly.
 
Teddy_Dem said:
slashcam posted some footage of the C70. Shot with the same model and at the same location of all their other camera tests, but not on the same day of course, so it can be somewhat of a comparison:
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Love Rob's work on Slashcam ... although there is an occasional WB issue ...

Interesting to see the progression of her tats ...

But ... what happened to Ricarda?
 
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