Canon's 4K Cinema EOS Official Announcement & Latest Info-NAB 2012

[Kenneth Fisher]

What comes back to bite you is the R&D that goes into creating something like the EPIC or Scarlet, and the massive amounts of money to be returned to you if you want to break even or profit. That all needs to be considered here as does the overhead of all their video/camera departments, the employees who create these amazing feats of engineering, and all sorts of other things

Add to that marketing, distribution, figure in warranty - and there is more. All of that has to be taken into account when pricing a product.

Canon would be CRAZY to make the MKIII everything everyone wanted because most would end up just buying that instead of the higher-end.

Not to mention the camera would cost more. Probably a lot more. It wouldn't be the upgrade to the MKII, it would be something else.

 

[Simon Shasha]

Maybe I'm not the first to respond to this, but I couldn't help given the irony of it. Right after I read your post I saw this story in my twitter feed...

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/blog/morning_call/2012/04/sony-to-cut-10000-jobs-refocus.html

Haha, nah, I specifically used "10,000" because of the articles coming out about Sony cutting 10,000 jobs - no irony/coincidence.

Nonsense. Canon put 24p on the 5D Mark II because CERTAIN people told them to. What people? Guys like Rodney Charters, ASC and Shane Hurlbut, ASC. They didn't do the firmware update because of some mass outcry from end users... notice, if you will, the end users have had mass outcries for a comparable update on the 7D, and it never happened. Canon wanted in the digital cinema world, and Rodney and Shane were using the 5D, and they were the kind of guys Canon wanted to hear from. So they did what those guys asked, and in fact took it so far as to build an entire Cinema EOS division, specifically aimed at ASC members and the like.

I'd still like to believe 24P/25P came to the 5DMK2 due to the complaints of users world-wide, rather than a handful of Hollywood DPs - guess we'd have to sit down with a Canon CEO and ask them directly. But given these new Canon cameras, perhaps you're right. Perhaps Canon only cares what the pros say - they seem to be only making cameras for that crowd anyway. Regardless, what you wrote proves what I was arguing earlier - Canon is not listening to the amateurs/inides, Sony is.

And for those that think the 5DMK3 isn't "crippled" on purpose - don't forget that the 5DMK3 uses the exact same processor as that 1D 4K DSLR - that alone shows what the Digic 5 is capable of. Let's hope the Magic Lantern crew master the Digic 5 and brings us at least true 1080P out of the 5DMK3 - and who knows, maybe even a 1.6x crop function! Here's to hoping!

 

[eleison]

Canon is very much like Apple in that regard. They just say "here it is, deal with it" and at that point all you can say is yes or no. Not that difficult.

While a lot of people are still saying yes to Apple, more people are saying no to canon. Apple focuses and creates products for main stream consumers (teachers, students, etc. average people). Canon use to... now they are catering towards high end professionals.

When most people buy an apple product, most feel they bought a quality product that isn't crippled to protect apples revenue. If an apple product is "crippled", its to protect the end user -- the "walled garden" approach. To improve the end user experience. Not extract more money from the consumer a la low pass filter that canon seems to be doing.

Apple gives the impression that they try hard to create "insanely good" products for the mass market. They didn't cripple their ipods when the iphone came out. They didn't cripple their iphone's when the ipad came out. They just have good products. Canon... not so much... They give the impression they WILL cripple their products to protect another product... At the end of the day, canon for most people equals greed. Sony got burn for being greedy.. I'm sure canon will too.

 

[Simon Shasha]

Cool little piece by EOSHD:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7919/a-canon-video-camera-for-the-rest-of-us-outside-hollywood

 

[Jay Birch]

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7919/a-canon-video-camera-for-the-rest-of-us-outside-hollywood

That actually sums up perfectly what I said yesterday about the modern day "film maker" having an overblown sense of entitlement.

We are consumers, we don't get to decide the price or specs... We just get to decide if we want to buy.

 

[alpi69]

I said it before, and I will say it again; Canon have neglected the very people, the low-budget indie-filmmakers/cinematographers, that gave them their reputation as a company capable of creating cinematic images.

Well, first of all the Nikons have always looked more cinematic than the Canon´s. Even the 5D. So there´s more to it than being "able to create cinematic images".

And why do they neglect low-budget filmmakers? You can rent the C300 for a few hundred dollars and use your existing lens-set! That is a HUGE progress in low-budget filmmaking: a camera that produces exactly what we asked for and is affordable to rent.
And then there are some people (me included, because renting is no option where I live) who invested in the new Canon "C" product-line exactly because we know they listened and will keep making products for us.
If you look at the competition you realize it isn´t easy to produce the camera we all want: SONY has one with high-speed fps and one with 4:4:4 output via external recorder and they have the FS100, which is a gem also. All SONY´s have compromises built in (especially weaker codecs, weaker built cameras, bad form factors). Canon makes less compromises, from the housing down to the codec, and it costs.

 

[Barry_Green]

We are consumers, we don't get to decide the price or specs... We just get to decide if we want to buy.

Wow, what an intelligent perspective. Wish more folks would see the world the way you do -- it would save a lot of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. Not to mention it would cut down the chatter on this board by about 70%, and we could get back to filmmaking instead of gearwhining.

Well stated, Jay Birch.

 

[ryan brown]

That actually sums up perfectly what I said yesterday about the modern day "film maker" having an overblown sense of entitlement.

We are consumers, we don't get to decide the price or specs... We just get to decide if we want to buy.

I disagree whole heartedly.

Consumers don't have a say in price or specs? Consumers ARE the market, of course they have a say. That's like saying a band doesn't need fans to succeed. Without the fan-base there is no successful band, and without the consumers there is no successful company.

 

[Jay Birch]

Consumers don't have a say in price or specs? Consumers ARE the market, of course they have a say.

Consumers have a say, after the fact... as I stated.... we choose whether to buy it.. Much like your band scenario, the consumers (fans) don't decide the style of the band, the kit they use or the lyrics they write... They can choose to be fans, if they like what is on offer.

That is our only input as consumers (unless you want to be pedantic and bring up things like market research, focus groups etc... If you are a hollywood DP with strong ties to Canon, you might, just might, have a small say in the price and/or specs.)

If this thread proves anything, it would be that if you let the consumer choose specs/price... You would very quickly go out of business.

 

[Emanuel]

All I see is a lot of opinions here and assumptions about what Canon is thinking and why this or that costs what it does. Even if the cost of manufacturing the dream camera some seem to want was low, there's a lot more to the "cost" of making such a camera beyond the parts in it and the cost of putting it together. Someone said up top that they could charge $3500 for their $15000 DSLR. Really, you know that how?

I'll tell you how : )

I have more than 2 decades of experience of dealing with these brands as customer. And not only. No idea if you were already born when I started to attend exhibitions and to have direct contact with sellers, reps and engineers acting as executives. Spending hours to speak with them, learning... Also used to send to them congratulations when they've become top executives too Aside hard work & background in economics and my own way as academic, as well, in the business.

There are other reasons than strictly 'cost' for such $15,000 price, also listed some posts ago. Period.

Apart that, feel free to believe in whatever you want. But who is inside this business knows very well the reality. And if I read over here some other people to echo you, do not think everything you read is free of other stuff I will abstain to comment ;-)

Once you identify yourself as Christian moviemaker, something I will tell you as 2nd thought and your elder brother:
God gave us two ears and only one mouth. This doesn't mean that 50% in midway and never said, doesn't exist

Fortunately, you can consider myself as 100% indie once the only ties I have is with my budget and people who work with me. Nothing connected with this industry unless as customer, good one BTW

I think it's really foolish to say outright that there's some sort of conspiracy going on.

It is not conspiracy, it is business!

 

[Cosimo Bullo]

Wow, what an intelligent perspective. Wish more folks would see the world the way you do -- it would save a lot of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. Not to mention it would cut down the chatter on this board by about 70%, and we could get back to filmmaking instead of gearwhining.

Well stated, Jay Birch.

Actually, we consumers did help motivate Canon to make some serious and needed changes to the 5d2 a couple of years back. We don't just buy.

 

[chervas]

No, we did not.
All I want is to find a C300 in stock and I will be more than happy to hand over $16k

 

[Cosimo Bullo]

Yes.. we did. 24p, better codec.... those came after a hard fought push by consumers. No reason to be a nihilist here. Consumers of course have *some* power, and that's a beautiful thing.

 

[Emanuel]

 

[chervas]

You do not know what you speak off. Those changes did not came about because of the mass consumer.

 

[Emanuel]

You do not know what you speak off. Those changes did not came about because of the mass consumer.

No, my friend. It was not because of high-end users. At least, only. I heard it directly from the source. They were not expecting such 5DII mass success. And FYI they started lurking reduser and anything related to RED. Again, from the beast's mouth... LOL

 

[Cosimo Bullo]

Thanks Emanuel, that's exactly correct. Those who weren't there can't know how hard we lobbied for these feature, and just how hard working with the 5d was at the outset. No, the public has power and from time to time wields it.

 

[Cosimo Bullo]

Also, incidentally, I sort of do know what I'm speaking of here (for once...) as I'm married to a consumer journalist and have a day to day view of the power of a well written consumer letter (or hundreds of them).

 

[pulpfiction007]

I am really of 2 minds on this whole thing. I DO understand the sentiment that we the consumers should just vote with our wallets, that is the bottom line for any business after all.

On the other hand, I think where much of the disappointment comes from is those early murmurs about a "cinema" DSLR. I think many thought it would just be something different and lower priced, not even expecting it to be in the 1DX body - basically an improved extension of what the T3i, 7D and 5DMK2/3 already were. If we had been paying close attention we might have predicted it would not be that at all but what it actually is- A companion for productions working with the C300, C500....a stand in for different environments, small spaces, ultra low light work. I guess upon further reflection I can "get" that. I personally don't think THIS camera when the true street price hits is exactly overpriced in the scenario/sector it is made for.
It is just that many had expectations of that other camera, not something for nothing ...not THIS camera at a ridiculously low price.....ANOTHER camera altogether. I'll just adhere to dustylens' line....this is the not the droid many were looking for. Time to look to the other options available.

 

[KyleProhaska]

I'll tell you how : )

I have more than 2 decades of experience of dealing with these brands as customer. And not only. No idea if you were already born when I started to attend exhibitions and to have direct contact with sellers, reps and engineers acting as executives. Spending hours to speak with them, learning... Also used to send to them congratulations when they've become top executives too Aside hard work & background in economics and my own way as academic, as well, in the business.

There are other reasons than strictly 'cost' for such $15,000 price, also listed some posts ago. Period.

Apart that, feel free to believe in whatever you want. But who is inside this business knows very well the reality. And if I read over here some other people to echo you, do not think everything you read is free of other stuff I will abstain to comment ;-)

Once you identify yourself as Christian moviemaker, something I will tell you as 2nd thought and your elder brother:
God gave us two ears and only one mouth. This doesn't mean that 50% in midway and never said, doesn't exist

Fortunately, you can consider myself as 100% indie once the only ties I have is with my budget and people who work with me. Nothing connected with this industry unless as customer, good one BTW

It is not conspiracy, it is business!

Not sure why you're saying some of what you did, I said the same in my post. I said it's not a conspiracy, it's business lol.

If you think they could still sell it at $3500 and make the funds necessary to keep their business afloat and have enough left over to develop the NEXT camera and payback any investment put in then I guess you must know something I don't and I'll leave it at that It's just like any other product with amounts to recoup and eventually the prices sink a little bit but they get as much as they can upfront. It's the same reason I kept my features MSRP at $19.99 and haven't dropped it for a year and a half. It continues to sell pretty consistently, but this fall I'll give it its first cut now that I'm in the black to sell more and although my profit is less, I've covered my rear end enough to make the cut.

I'll leave the thread alone for now and just grab some popcorn because a lot of this stuff is comical. Watching Barry school people (and me sometimes LOL!) during crazy release times like this makes DVXuser an entertaining place to hang.