Canon's 4K Cinema EOS Official Announcement & Latest Info-NAB 2012

[Barry_Green]

4K is here and not only from RED.

True, JVC is offering 4K at a $4500 price point-ish, Canon has it in a DSLR and a C500, Sony offers it in the F65 and in a someday upgrade for the FS700, and Panasonic is announcing 4K recording formats although no cameras to go with it yet.

The fight: RED, you're not alone on the mountain anymore. Love what you have done for film making, but the attitude that comes with it ends today. Once Canon or SOny have given us their RAW format with cameras that can see in the dark and just plain work when you turn them on, you will be less relevant unless you keep up the pace. R&D and resource from sony and canon are why bigger than RED.

Interesting perspective. In some ways the other manufacturers introducing these products certainly "legitimizes" 4K. Whether Red's "attitude" will change remains to be seen; Red has frequently hinted at products that the other guys can't imagine yet, so we'll see how that plays out. Yes the R&D resources from Canon and Sony are potentially much larger, but Sony's losing money faster than a drunk at a blackjack table whereas we don't know how Red's doing (being private, we have no indication of their success or profitability).

Just give us a true 1080p 10bit 422 camera in the $6000 range (Panny???) and you will be happy for years to come.

Panasonic's doing that now with the HPX250, in the $5k range, so maybe a comparably-priced large-sensor version isn't an unrealistic expectation. Sure would be nice if they'd make a large-sensor version.

 

[Barry_Green]

For those who didn't really even want 4k, just a "cinema DSLR" . Like a 5dMK3 or 7D with clean HDMI and great codec- This camera went far above that crowd's budget.

But that group can get an AF100 (for the same price as a 5D Mark III) or an FS100 for just under $5k. Aren't those satisfying the need? Or does it really only count if it's in the shape of a DSLR?

It is again the harsh realization that Canon are leaving the budget movie shooter behind swiftly - that is what is so hard to swallow.

Canon never was catering to the budget movie shooter. They made stills cameras with video features. You (the DSLR video shooter) went to them, they didn't come to you.

These were "just DSLR's" after all...not meant for movie shooting, but people have been willing to compromise in many ways to work with them for what they offered. All this crowd wanted was a camera for them....not 4k, not the 1DX photo capability...just a fairly low budget (5 or 6 thousand maybe?) DSLR aimed at them. This is NOT that camera. That is why people are disappointed.

Again -- you've got an FS100 at that price range, and an AF100 at dramatically lower than that price range. What else are you looking for? Is the key factor that it say "Canon" on the body somewhere, or that it be DSLR shaped? If you're willing to pay $5,000 why wouldn't today's AF100 or FS100 give you everything you want?

 

[homestar_kevin]

lol at everyone being so mad about this.

 

[cowpunk52]

Was there an announcement that listed the exact specs in the beginning? 1080 @ Full Frame, 4K @ APS-H. A number of us must've missed it.

It's been mentioned on DVXuser several times since it's original development announcement on Nov 4, 2011. Below are a couple. http://www.canon.com/news/2011/nov04e.html

"New Digital SLR Camera with 4K Movie Function (Under Development)

Equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and supporting the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), the next-generation digital SLR camera currently under development will enable exceptional image quality for the creation of innovative and expressive images. Additional details, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.

*Cropped to APS-H-equivalent size (dimensions measuring approximately 80% vertically and horizontally of a 35 mm full-frame sensor) when recording in 4K."

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-was-a-fast)&p=2464381&viewfull=1#post2464381
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Speculation&p=2470153&viewfull=1#post2470153

​

 

[Piolet]

I was very supportive of Canon when they had their Cinema EOS launch in November. I even went to the launch event at Paramount Studios.

I'm just disappointed that (to me), it appears Canon is positioning themselves as the premium option instead of the high value option. Sony use to do this in their broadcast line (premium option) but now they've become very aggressive at being the high value option.

To me, $15K for the 1D-C is way too much. The camera's mechanics are probably the same as the 1D-X because it has the same still capabilities and economically it just makes sense to reuse as many parts as possible. That's fine, but to charge more than double the 1D-X and not even make any mechanical changes to professional connectors or anything else just leaves a sour spot to me.

But Canon has every right to price their products any way they want. We also have a right not to buy it and to buy from another competitor.

 

[Kholi]

It's been mentioned on DVXuser many times since it's original development announcement on Nov 4, 2011: http://www.canon.com/news/2011/nov04e.html

"New Digital SLR Camera with 4K Movie Function (Under Development)

Equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and supporting the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), the next-generation digital SLR camera currently under development will enable exceptional image quality for the creation of innovative and expressive images. Additional details, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.

*Cropped to APS-H-equivalent size (dimensions measuring approximately 80% vertically and horizontally of a 35 mm full-frame sensor) when recording in 4K."

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?266146-Canon-Fires-Back-4K-DSLR-(that-was-a-fast)&p=2464381&viewfull=1#post2464381
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Speculation&p=2470153&viewfull=1#post2470153

​

Got it. Yeah, totally missed that. Chsk. Guess I wasn't paying attention to Canon all that much as a whole.

Thanks.

 

[roxics]

If the C500 uses the same sensor as the C300 can we really call it 4K. Sounds like the same kind of "special math" that Red uses.

Which is fine by me. I don't think we need real 4k.

 

[HansSteinert]

I'm thinking this DSLR is going to be a great camera for bigger productions, but it's clearly not aimed at me given the price.

 

[mdg]

I wonder how RED feels about all this. I'm sure they will fire back with a new sensor upgrade that either pushes toward 6K or even higher frame rates. At some point it becomes superfluous....yea cropping is awesome and so is downscaling, but I'd rather they chill out and come to some poo pooing sense with regards to batteries and storage media.

That s*%t SHOULD end today with the realization that you can buy other 4K products that work longer than 30 mins or don't require thousands of dollars worth of media for 2 hours of recording time.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm just disappointed that (to me), it appears Canon is positioning themselves as the premium option instead of the high value option.

I don't understand why this is news, or surprising to people. Canon has *always* been the dramatically most expensive camcorder. Usually by a factor of 50% more expensive than their competition. Always, ever since they made their first "pro" camcorder, the XL1. Back in XL1 days the PD150 and DVX were $3500-ish, the XL1 was $5,000-ish. In the HD era the HVX was $6k, the Z1 was $6k, and Canon's XLH1 was $9,000. Today, an HPX250 is $5,000 and the comparable XF305 is $7500.

Sony use to do this in their broadcast line (premium option) but now they've become very aggressive at being the high value option.

Sony's gotten better with their pricing, but they're still higher than any comparable Panasonic or JVC. Panasonic and JVC have always been the high-value, lower-cost option, Sony has always been more expensive, and Canon has always been the most expensive (speaking strictly of the professional lineup, don't know or care about the consumer stuff). Sony's FS100 is $5,000 and the AF100 is $3500. The PDW800 is $30,000 and the HPX3100 is $20,000.

But Canon has every right to price their products any way they want. We also have a right not to buy it and to buy from another competitor.

And that is the only way the customer can actually influence the market. Reward the company that builds the product you want at the price you can afford, and ignore the rest. If they don't sell products at the price they're trying to charge, they'll be forced to either lower the price or otherwise adapt to the market. The good thing is that there's absolutely a glut of potential products at surprisingly high quality, from the $700 GH2 and $3500 AF100 to the $5000 FS100 and $9000 FS700 to the $14000 F3, $16k C300, $20k Scarlet, and on up through the C500, Epic, and then up to the Alexa. Every one of these products is capable of producing excellent image quality. Just pick the one that offers the features you need at the price point you can afford. There are now good choices at all price brackets.

 

[Barry_Green]

If the C500 uses the same sensor as the C300 can we really call it 4K. Sounds like the same kind of "special math" that Red uses.

Which is fine by me. I don't think we need real 4k.

From what I understand, it is exactly the same as Red uses (for its 4K Red One). A 4K sensor with a Bayer pattern. If you read it out like in the C300, it delivers 1080p @ 4:4:4. If you read it out as raw and then de-mosaic it, you'll get the same type of imagery that Red delivers - 3.2k of resolution at about 4:2:0's worth of color.

Where Red does have an advantage in "4k" is that the Epic can shoot "5k", and presuming about a 20% loss of resolution during the de-mosaic process, that results in an after-debayer resolution of about 4k.

 

[Barry_Green]

I wonder how RED feels about all this. I'm sure they will fire back with a new sensor upgrade

They already announced the sensor upgrade program months ago, it's called Dragon. No specifications on what it will do, but Epics (and I think Scarlets?) will have the option of upgrading to the Dragon sensor.

 

[Piolet]

Interesting perspective. In some ways the other manufacturers introducing these products certainly "legitimizes" 4K. Whether Red's "attitude" will change remains to be seen; Red has frequently hinted at products that the other guys can't imagine yet, so we'll see how that plays out. Yes the R&D resources from Canon and Sony are potentially much larger, but Sony's losing money faster than a drunk at a blackjack table whereas we don't know how Red's doing (being private, we have no indication of their success or profitability).

The problem with RED is that their engineering is still not as disciplined as the established companies like Sony and Canon. They take too long to develop products and to get the firmware finished. Even if they have good ideas, it takes them way too long to implement them in robust products. Meanwhile, the other companies are releasing products with incremental improvements, but at least they're shipping products and making steady improvements.

I think RED really underestimated how difficult it is to compete in the electronics field in the long run. They're good at making a splash, it but takes more to keep competing in the long term. They might have a lot of money, but if their engineering and development can't keep up, they're going to become less relevant in the future. I still think they will only be a niche player in the end.

 

[mdg]

They already announced the sensor upgrade program months ago, it's called Dragon. No specifications on what it will do, but Epics (and I think Scarlets?) will have the option of upgrading to the Dragon sensor.

So....do people just wait around for the upgraded version? Why would you drop a ton of cash (unless you had huge money-making jobs between now and Dragon). Seems like they are forcing slow sales by announcing that....from what I've read the upgrade will lag the announcement considerably.

 

[pulpfiction007]

But that group can get an AF100 (for the same price as a 5D Mark III) or an FS100 for just under $5k. Aren't those satisfying the need? Or does it really only count if it's in the shape of a DSLR?


Canon never was catering to the budget movie shooter. They made stills cameras with video features. You (the DSLR video shooter) went to them, they didn't come to you.


Again -- you've got an FS100 at that price range, and an AF100 at dramatically lower than that price range. What else are you looking for? Is the key factor that it say "Canon" on the body somewhere, or that it be DSLR shaped? If you're willing to pay $5,000 why wouldn't today's AF100 or FS100 give you everything you want?

I agree with you, there are OTHER options...absolutely. I don't even like the DLSR form factor personally- I'm just talking about initial response to this camera...those who love the DSLR form factor who have lenses, rigs etc just waiting for a camera made for them- this wasn't it, some people are disappointed it wasn't, some people are happy about what it offers- all opinions about it are valid. I'm not angry, I'm not screaming CANON! you sobs! lol- it's just hard for those who saw DSLRs (whether Canon catered to them or not is irrelevant) as an alternative to other cameras for the lower priced bodies to swallow 15K. That is all I'm saying, Canon is going a different way.....people in the 5grand market will just have to swallow and look elsewhere as you stated. AF100, FS100...etc. But people will state what they think of a new release, happy or unhappy....

 

[Kholi]

RED's fine. Scarlet's class has competition, EPIC is still out of this class range.

I agree with mdg, though, the media prices are sky high... that needs to come down considerably.

 

[Kegan]

Not a RED thread, but no - we don't wait around for the upgrade. Why would we? Currently, the Epic is incredible. Dragon without needing to purchase a new camera is just icing.

I think its great that a lot of camera manufacturer's are getting into the game. I also think that its pretty annoying how many people are complaining about the prices of things. Prior to DSLRs, even prosumer cameras costed quite a lot. We got spoiled with cheap alternatives - that's all.

Kegan

 

[Piolet]

I don't understand why this is news, or surprising to people. Canon has *always* been the dramatically most expensive camcorder. Usually by a factor of 50% more expensive than their competition. Always, ever since they made their first "pro" camcorder, the XL1. Back in XL1 days the PD150 and DVX were $3500-ish, the XL1 was $5,000-ish. In the HD era the HVX was $6k, the Z1 was $6k, and Canon's XLH1 was $9,000. Today, an HPX250 is $5,000 and the comparable XF305 is $7500.

I didn't really say this was surprising. I'm just disappointed that they chose this route. Their video products have always had a premium (as you've listed), but it's not as much as the Cinema EOS line (in my opinion).

In other parts of their business, like still photography, their pricing was fairly reasonable for being a top tier competitor in their market. In some years when they were actually very aggressive. But lately I'm starting to see premium pricing in that area too.

 

[cowpunk52]

And here is the real question: who's renting this?

5DMKIII rentals look to be about 200/day (in LA, not sure about everywhere else)

How much is this thing gonna rent for? 600 body only? Cool. I guess it'll be the only way to get projection-worthy Full Frame.

C500 then is what, 800/day? Cool.

Epic outfits are renting for 1000/day~1400/day depending on who you know and I'm seeing EOS kits going out for 800/day. To whom are these cameras renting too?

Not trying to start a flame war, legitimately inquiring as to where they sit in the rental market? I guess there's room for everything.

I think it's a very dangerous time to invest in a camera if your intention is rental. These days, before buying, you really need to have an already established client base and decide a camera purchase based on those needs. Rental prices are dropping sharply, and will only continue to do so. Look at the value Lensrentals.com offers, for instance! These days, you can't throw a stick without hitting a rental company in LA.

The real money is in producing sellable content quickly and cheaply.

Actually, after a shoot I had a Treyarch a couple days ago, I realized the real money is in video games. Angry Birds Space anyone?

 

[Kholi]

I think it's a very dangerous time to invest in a camera if your intention is rental. These days, before buying, you really need to have an already established client base and decide a camera purchase based on those needs. Rental prices are dropping sharply, and will only continue to do so. Look at the value Lensrentals.com offers, for instance! These days, you can't throw a stick without hitting a rental company in LA.

The real money is in producing sellable content quickly and cheaply.

Actually, after a shoot I had a Treyarch a couple days ago, I realized the real money is in video games. Angry Birds Space anyone?

If I didn't have to abide by swear filter I would agree with you in a very profane manner.

ESPECIALLY on the real money being in games. I wish I would've stayed on that path. But, in the defense of motion picture... gratification (or disappointment) comes a lot quicker.