C100: Canon - Suggestion - Users pay to get new tecnical upgrades to Mark I models C100/300

PedroAquiles

PedroAquiles

Active member
I think that is enough hardware in the C100/300/500 MARK I models to have upgrades in the specs.
Of course its more profit to make a brand new Mark 2 and change to better specs, but i think its a large margin of profit to Canon make some minor upgrade to payed firmwares.
This will give the profits and keep more user on the brand.

I don´t mind to pay this:

C100 mark I
- 2K 60P + Real 25P not FsP + 50mbs Avchd or other less compress codec - 500€
- 4K plus above - 1000€

C300 mark I
- 2K true 60P 500€
- 4K just 50/100mbs - 1000€ ( if its possible on the XC10 i think its possible on the c300)

Or another example: Canon C100 markII normal 5000€, and 7000€ Canon C100 Mark 4K
Its not good to small budget canon cinema line users have a entry point of 16.000$ to the 4k (c300 mk2)

That huge gape, make the people change brand ! not because 4K its realy a market need but its a strong markting sale point !

Great times to be a filmmaker !
Pedro
 
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Dreams... Mark ones are done and complete in Canon's eyes. I'm afraid you cannot expect anything more from them.
 
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I do think the MK 1's are done but I do agree that it is a little odd to have C100MK2 unable to do any form of 4K video. I know they just announced the X10 but there still seems to be a gap in their pro camera lineup.
 
Dafilman21 said:
I do think the MK 1's are done but I do agree that it is a little odd to have C100MK2 unable to do any form of 4K video. I know they just announced the X10 but there still seems to be a gap in their pro camera lineup.
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Canon don't work like that, they sell out of the box solutions, all mark I's and C100 Mark II is a done deal. May see small incremental firmware updates here and there , AF/DAF improvements things like that, but 4K or bump in frame rates, not happening I'm afraid. Plus the mark I EOS cameras and all the XF 205/305 are on 0% finance for 2 years - a clear indication they need them gone to make room for XC10 (god that thing...) and dare I say XC20 and XC30 in the future. Same thing Sony did with PMW going to PXW range. They'd make more money selling you a new camera than improving existing ones.

BMD is where you need to go if you want improvements to existing range. Canon are stubborn and ruthless businesswise. Can;t expect them to change even though there are new players like BMD/Aja who take care of that market segment.
 
I am saying right now their seems to be hole in the lineup, I never said that I EXPECT them to add 4K to the C100MK2, although that would be nice.
 
XC10 entry level with 4K - 2000$
C300 mk2 - 16.000$

its a 14.000$ gap in the cinema line to the 4K
 
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k0bayashi said:
Canon don't work like that, they sell out of the box solutions, They'd make more money selling you a new camera than improving existing ones.
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I think that exist users leaving canon to sony, because of the lack of those firmware upgrades, they lose money not making to newer models.
For large majority of users have a price range of 5.000$ - 9.000$ and in this price range they could compete with sony with pay firmware upgrades to rival some specs in c100 and c300 like they do with the DAF
That gap make us spend money sometimes on exterior codec recorders.
 
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I've said this before:

For a moment, think about all the professional news, studio, travel and wedding photographers in the world. Image them 15 years ago. They have invested in knowledge and equipment and are working (and getting paid) doing what they love.

Then, a technological revolution comes along that makes knowledge and equipment allowing for "professional" results available to "everyone".

Do you think those professionals are happy now that they can buy their equipment a little cheaper? Or are they in fact a wee bit annoyed that everyone that ever laid hands on a camera can put up a website and offer their services… using "professional" equipment?

It's not the hobbyists fault that doors open at their feet by clients willing to take a risk with a new guy without a proven track record. Some of those hobbyists will rise to fame and the clients will be happy. Some will fail miserably and the clients will be unhappy.

Professional equipment is "free". It's free because it's not you paying for it—it's your clients.

The only segment looking for cheap equipment are hobbyists who want to play with professional gear. But there are lots of actual professionals who don't want their gear to be accessible to everyone.

Canon is the largest camera supplier in the world, and has been for a while. They are doing something right.
 
This post strikes me as less of an actual suggestion and more of a plea for Canon to provide hobbyists (read: not professionals) access to newer, more professional features on the cheap.
 
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AndreeOnline said:
Then, a technological revolution comes along that makes knowledge and equipment allowing for "professional" results available to "everyone".
Do you think those professionals are happy now that they can buy their equipment a little cheaper? Or are they in fact a wee bit annoyed that everyone that ever laid hands on a camera can put up a website and offer their services… using "professional" equipment?

The only segment looking for cheap equipment are hobbyists who want to play with professional gear. But there are lots of actual professionals who don't want their gear to be accessible to everyone.
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I am a professional photographer for 18 years, and i saw this happen in photography industry, now even my clients have a 5D mark III like me, but they don´t produce good pictures...
But its a clear fact that cheap prices to access top professional video tools will continue to drop, and the prices in motion productions too, this wave come to photography and will came to video.
Good creativity its always well payed, but bad professionals with good expensive tools that exist today just because they can access to tools will sadly vanish like many pass photographers.
This post was intent to clarify if is possible to make payed technical software upgrades to mark I models
 
I primarily wrote my longer post as a reply to this:

PedroAquiles said:
I think that exist users leaving canon to sony, because of the lack of those firmware upgrades, they lose money not making to newer models.
For large majority of users have a price range of 5.000$ - 9.000$ and in this price range they could compete with sony with pay firmware upgrades…
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I am suggesting that Canon—and its professional user segment—don't want a large user base with a cheap camera that is 80-90% of their flagship model.

If this sounds counter intuitive, I tried to provide an explanation to why that may be.

Of course Canon want to sell millions and millions of the C100 mkII, which is an excellent camera. But they also make sure that it doesn't come too close for comfort in terms of specs in relation to the new C300 mkII.

The original C100 and C300 were probably too close. A simple external recorder essentially turned a C100 into a C300 (well not quite) and the C100 even got the AF before the C300.
 
Canon's in the business of selling cameras (and copiers)... not protecting "professional" video producers. To ascribe any of their market decisions to protectionism is silly. That's not how business works.

If Canon thought they could sell a C100 Mark II 4K upgrade (and it was technically feasible) profitably without hurting their other products (C300 Mark II), they'd do it. It has nothing to do with keeping features out of the hands of "hobbyists". A company may choose not to enter a market segment (Arri isn't in the sub-$10k market for example), but I'd bet they make those decisions more for THEIR OWN reasons (branding, engineering limitations, wanting a more focused product line, profitability) than out of some perceived duty to keep their "good gear" out of the hands of non-professionals.

That kind of protectionism wouldn't work anyway... it just gives companies that don't care about protecting the "pros" a nice gigantic market hole to enter the market.

As for upgrading the C100 and C300, I think they're pretty much tapped out processor-wise with their current abilities. It would take a LOT of engineering to upgrade their processing horsepower enough to work with 4x the data stream.
 
Well in the scheme of things, I would have to say that I've been one or the fortunate, hobbyist turned profit. I myself am always looking for high end, cheap and affordable gear with the most professional image and features. This is how I have made out. Not having to pay for schooling to work in this craft because technology is being made for the novice in mind.

Canon started an onslaught of working professional's careers by introducing the 5d/7d series, then soon realized what they did and decided if they gave us to much more, to soon, we would say good enough and have no more reason to play their annual camera upgrade games, allowing their market shares to become stagnant. So where they left off other manufactures picked up, while their institutionalized brand followers stand by and watch the better image, and higher specked cameras far exceed the fossil technology of cameras that have far out lived their life spans for sake of not alienating their pro line. Well news flash. Other manufactures are seizing the moment. at sub 1k. Grandma is putting her new technological break through camera in full auto with auto focus, focus peaking, waveform, etc. and getting shots better than so called professionals at a fraction of the cost, while taking notes off these types of forums.

Lets be honest, the professional market as a whole is small in comparison to the average consumer/hobbyist, and manufactures will bend sooner or later to the cries of the hobbyist because they have really become the majority. I hope samsung will put their new sensor into a compact ergonomic camera body, and make some other adjustments. A great time to be a hobbyist, looking to go professional. Canon is no longer the only player in the game. Love to see people walk around beating their chest with their over priced cameras while those same hobbits produce great content withe their well crafted story telling and $800 camera. I am still a fan of canon and love how they revolutionized the the indie film industry, but I am not a fanboy of none of these manufactures, and will be on the sidelines waiting on canons overpriced bodies to drop in price to pounce on one because at this point, canon still rules in the color science department But falls way behind in everything else to it's lower cost competitors.
 
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reem12 said:
Well in the scheme of things, I would have to say that I've been one or the fortunate,hobbyist, turned profit. I myself am always looking for high end, cheap and affordable gear with the most professional image and features.
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I think there are a lot of "pros" who fall into this category as well. Not every professional has a $50k/yr gear budget... and even if your shoots would pay for a C300, a C100+ninja is cheaper, meaning you get to keep more of that money rather than giving it to Canon.


Other manufactures are seizing the moment. at sub 1k.
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I think you're being hyperbolic, but there's a lot of usability, image quality and features sitting between a sub-$1k camera and even a $5k camera like the C100 Mark II. To act like they're on pretty much the same playing field doesn't make a lot of sense.

Lets be honest. the professional market as a whole is small in comparison to the average consumer/hobbyist, and manufactures will bend sooner or later to the cries of the hobbyist because they have really become the majority.
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The "professional market" as a whole is smaller in terms of "number of people" than general consumers/hobbyists... but I'd wager they spend many times more money in these market segments than general consumers/hobbyists.

The truth is, EVERYONE benefits from cheaper, better gear... even the pros. Pros get to keep more of that client check if they're not paying off a $50k camera.
 
Sorry, not gonna happen. I know Canon,

There is a gap between the XC10 and C300 mkII, and they will fill that gap with a 4K C100 mk III when the times comes where both the C100mkIIand C300 are no longer used or relevant.

I give it a year to two for a 4K C100 mk III.

The gap between the XC10 and C300 Canon now believes can be filled with the current C100mkII and C300 OG and 1Dc.
 
I think a lot of people look at this from the wrong perspective. It's not about cramming as many specs into a camera, but creating a camera that fits a use. If you're shooting weddings or corporate video, or smaller budget docs, the C100 is a great camera. It's wonderful for solo operators with the AF and all the ergonomic improvements over a DSLR. Wedding shooters don't really need 4k. The 60i to 24p works well enough for the slow mo needs of that type of shoot.
If you're shooting higher end corporate or TV, the C300 brings in a few features that could be useful or required there.
Both of these cameras serve a user and serve them well. Why would Canon try to bastardize a C100 into a cheap C300? Canon doesn't think you really need those features, but does believe that you need what a C100 does for the price of a C100. This is why that camera exists. It fills a need at a price point without going overboard.
 
the top priority of the brands its profit.
Look to the last 15years in apple...a brand that buuild his core the pro segment users, software for pro design editing...etc
As soon they realize the the huge profit was in the iphone or ipads...
Pro software for photographer? aperture updates...naaaa lets shutdown and give them a simple photo tool in imacs...
thanks lightroom...
 
jbregar said:
Canon's in the business of selling cameras (and copiers)... not protecting "professional" video producers. To ascribe any of their market decisions to protectionism is silly. That's not how business works.
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First, you're sort of calling me silly. Don't let your feelings get the better of you. Lay out your reasoning neatly and you're much more likely to get a reasonable response.

Anyway, I feel you're projecting too much of your own ideas into what I wrote. Businesses work in many different ways—it's up to the owner to come up with a sustainable philosophy. There are many examples of products that compete on specifications. More often than not, it's a race to the bottom. Not only tech hardware like cameras and PCs, but also other businesses like aviation. When the general expectation is that the price of a plane ticket across the continent shouldn't be much more than the price of a family pizza, and airlines to their best to compete, eventually some of them won't be able to get off the ground—and staff will be laid off.

In the PC business Apple has long made computers that PC enthusiasts felt were underspec'ed. It's because in these very crude comparisons they simply compare bullet points of the usual suspects: CPU, RAM, drive size, display resolution—often totally neglecting the quality of some of the components (SSD vs HD, IPS vs TN).
And still Apple has seen great success because their products as a whole provided something that many felt was desirable.

jbregar said:
If Canon thought they could sell a C100 Mark II 4K upgrade (and it was technically feasible) profitably without hurting their other products (C300 Mark II), they'd do it.
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That's what I am saying, only I'm willing to go one step further and say that a 4k C100 mkII WOULD hurt C300 mkII sales.

Canon, much like Apple don't compete on spec. Sony much more so. I assume that Canon want to sell their cameras at the highest possible price. What I said about professional users is not so much that Canon is protecting them, but rather that Canon and its high end users has reached a consensus on what a professional camera should cost. Those high end users price their services accordingly and can position themselves above hobbyists in terms of image quality and features.
 
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