Canon Sales Continue to Plummet

In a strange way, because it does not matter, we just might get a Canon line of hybrids with great specs. When I look at the C series, how much farther can they or do they need to go? These cameras are already "there" in so many respects. The march of tech and softening of buying just might force these companies to go for it knowing there is limited time left in the whole game. As a buyer, I can exist on the current cameras and wait for something good. Hopefully Canon has noticed this in the market and are trying to get me to buy the new 5D mirrorless which in turn means I buy RF lenses.

These companies will not die, they will just shrink in size and product line. I see the mirrorless transition kind of like electric cars. The new stuff has less moving parts which means a shift of the business plan. More software and less hardware. I do not know if this help or hurts but the focus is changed. Mirrorless cameras seem to easier to make as the startup camera makers are creating nice products right out of the gate.
 
Samuel H said:
(pretends to be shocked)
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The reality is probably a lot worse than 62% because the summary is for the whole year but, if broken down by quarters, it could easily look like this - 40, 50, 60, 98. Furthermore, the operating profit of 48 billion yen is only 6% of their 807 billion yen in total global sales. That's a bad quarter of being in red (and it may already be for Q4).

Then they are showing "corporate and elimination" loss of 85 billion yen and one can shovel a lot of stuff under that rug. Presumably, those are one-time, not ongoing, losses but an accountant can have a bit of a leeway there too and Japan is quite well known for its "zombie companies".

So, IMO, Sony aside, the rest of these companies are in the survival mode, at least, insofar as their imaging divisions go.

PS. Not sure where I saw this - I believe it crossed the rumor sites a few days ago - where some Chinese exec Twitted a poll, "Which Japanese photo company should we buy?" Well, once again, Sony aside, they are all up for a meaningful relationship.
 
Olympus is releasing a 20 MPX EM1 MKIII for ~$1,700 (the exact price to be yet revealed).

Canon rumored EOS R5/6 with 20/45 MPX, likely to be $2,000 and up.

Fuji has a 26 MPX XT-4.

Or, one could get Sony Xperia 2, with a 64 MPX main camera, a wide, an ultra wide and a 10X zoom for about a grand. And watch movies on it too. And post on Facebook and Instagram. And surf the net in 5G.
 
DLD said:
Canon rumored EOS R5/6 with 20/45 MPX, likely to be $2,000 and up. Fuji has a 26 MPX XT-4.
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I want to see if Canon and Fuji can match Olympus/Panasonic IBIS performance.

So far Sony IBIS has been terrible with a moving camera, so I'm curious if Canon and Fuji can pull this off.
 
DLD said:
The reality is probably a lot worse than 62% because the summary is for the whole year but, if broken down by quarters, it could easily look like this - 40, 50, 60, 98. Furthermore, the operating profit of 48 billion yen is only 6% of their 807 billion yen in total global sales. That's a bad quarter of being in red (and it may already be for Q4).

Then they are showing "corporate and elimination" loss of 85 billion yen and one can shovel a lot of stuff under that rug. Presumably, those are one-time, not ongoing, losses but an accountant can have a bit of a leeway there too and Japan is quite well known for its "zombie companies".

So, IMO, Sony aside, the rest of these companies are in the survival mode, at least, insofar as their imaging divisions go.

PS. Not sure where I saw this - I believe it crossed the rumor sites a few days ago - where some Chinese exec Twitted a poll, "Which Japanese photo company should we buy?" Well, once again, Sony aside, they are all up for a meaningful relationship.
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Not sure if this is still in effect, but as a whole company, Sony has been standing at the edge of a cliff for over a decade. When I did some consulting work for them about 8 years ago, the entire organization was teetering, most divisions were struggling. Sure, Sony is huge
and very diversified but they have been going through some hard times as an overall organization over the past few years. It'll be interesting to see where their studios, broadcast, pro video and photography divisions are in three years.
 
Sony's financial report looks good for the last 2 years. Previous years seem a bit roller coaster. Their portfolio is doing well in almost all segments (mobile lost money). Oddly, imaging product profit went up while sensor product profit went down.
 
I was scanning a few sites for the new Xperia rumors - it's supposed to be officially announced next week - and some site remarked, ~ "Sony is leading the world in sensor production and in crappy smartphones simultaneously". Well, they moved their camera head into mobile, which is a huge promotion, so the upcoming models may not be duds after all.

Sony has 50% of the mobile image sensor market in revenues.

https://www.strategyanalytics.com/s...one-image-sensor-market-with-50-revenue-share

Their market share is negligible on the smartphones themselves.

https://www.phonearena.com/news/Why-are-Sony-smartphones-not-popular-anymore_id113661
 
Paul F said:
Sony's financial report looks good for the last 2 years. Previous years seem a bit roller coaster. Their portfolio is doing well in almost all segments (mobile lost money). Oddly, imaging product profit went up while sensor product profit went down.
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Thanks for the update Paul, I have not checked their financials and sales for quite a while.
 
Bassman2003 said:
When I look at the C series, how much farther can they or do they need to go? These cameras are already "there" in so many respects. The march of tech and softening of buying just might force these companies to go for it knowing there is limited time left in the whole game.
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Excepting the C700 they have two form factors right now, SLR and potato cam. Potato cam is not ideal ergonomically(I have one). And SLR throws away a bunch of features to fit on such a small frame. I don't understand why Canon hasn't further developed the XC10-15 form factor (cube cam?). If they added an inch to the height (flat top for mounting), inch to the depth and inch to the width I think they could put in all the features that, in absence, doomed the XC10. APS-C removeable lens. Integrated audio (mini-XLR people! not the unnecessarily massive XLR from the 1950's and an "audio adapter" that doubles the size of the camera is not a solution), long battery life, full-time viewfinder that doesn't require a stupid loupe, room for jacks that don't interfere with flip out screen. It's my dream camera, but no one's making it. Maybe I'm weird.
 
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brettsherman said:
Excepting the C700 they have two form factors right now, SLR and potato cam. Potato cam is not ideal ergonomically(I have one). And SLR throws away a bunch of features to fit on such a small frame. I don't understand why Canon hasn't further developed the XC10-15 form factor (cube cam?). If they added an inch to the height (flat top for mounting), inch to the depth and inch to the width I think they could put in all the features that, in absence, doomed the XC10. APS-C removeable lens. Integrated audio (mini-XLR people! not the unnecessarily massive XLR from the 1950's and an "audio adapter" that doubles the size of the camera is not a solution), long battery life, full-time viewfinder that doesn't require a stupid loupe, room for jacks that don't interfere with flip out screen. It's my dream camera, but no one's making it. Maybe I'm weird.
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ZCam or Red Komodo getting close?
 
brettsherman said:
Excepting the C700 they have two form factors right now, SLR and potato cam. Potato cam is not ideal ergonomically(I have one). And SLR throws away a bunch of features to fit on such a small frame. I don't understand why Canon hasn't further developed the XC10-15 form factor (cube cam?). If they added an inch to the height (flat top for mounting), inch to the depth and inch to the width I think they could put in all the features that, in absence, doomed the XC10. APS-C removeable lens. Integrated audio (mini-XLR people! not the unnecessarily massive XLR from the 1950's and an "audio adapter" that doubles the size of the camera is not a solution), long battery life, full-time viewfinder that doesn't require a stupid loupe, room for jacks that don't interfere with flip out screen. It's my dream camera, but no one's making it. Maybe I'm weird.
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jcs said:
ZCam or Red Komodo getting close?
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It may come as a surprise to anyone that knows me or has seen me post on any of these forums, but the Komodo has my interest and may be the next camera I add to the stable.
 
If your dealer sells RED cameras, start sending him/her gift baskets now.

New - and most importantly less-expensive - RED cameras are so difficult to obtain, and this one has twice the hype the Raven did, which appeared to finally fulfill all preorders well after a year of its release.
 
In that financial report, they list imaging and sensing as a single unit, but on page 21, they break out sensor operating income and show it to have gone up rather than down as I reported (on a quarterly and yearly basis). I can't find the report I read to compare.

Most of their division's profit margins are good to excellent with motion pictures being the worst at a paltry 2%.
 
jcs said:
ZCam or Red Komodo getting close?
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Not really. Those are blocks that you have to add everything on to, which then become a bit unwieldy. Plus, I'm talking a camera that goes quickly from shoot to edit. I'm looking for something with integrated handgrip, integrated screen, integrated viewfinder, H.264 and HEVC recording. Basically an SLR on steroids. The BMPCC and XC15 are probably the closest at this point.
 
Run&Gun said:
It may come as a surprise to anyone that knows me or has seen me post on any of these forums, but the Komodo has my interest and may be the next camera I add to the stable.
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Just saw the specs over at Cinema 5D. I think RED will sell every one of these they can crank out. It checks a lot of boxes for lower end users or as a B/C cam if you are shooting with more fully featured RED.
The allure of the RED codec/workflow is strong for C200/300MKII, S1H/EVA1, FS5/7 users. Assuming they will license Prores for it too, with the RF mount, cheap media and RED-like image, it'll sell well.
Imagine all of the GH5/A7 owners who are starting to have some success with weddings, etc. this would be the logical step up from a hybrid to a digital cinema camera too. Smart move for RED.
 
puredrifting said:
Just saw the specs over at Cinema 5D. I think RED will sell every one of these they can crank out. It checks a lot of boxes for lower end users or as a B/C cam if you are shooting with more fully featured RED. The allure of the RED codec/workflow is strong for C200/300MKII, S1H/EVA1, FS5/7 users. Assuming they will license Prores for it too, with the RF mount, cheap media and RED-like image, it'll sell well. Imagine all of the GH5/A7 owners who are starting to have some success with weddings, etc. this would be the logical step up from a hybrid to a digital cinema camera too. Smart move for RED.
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From the aforementioned Cinema5D article.

From the very beginning, Komodo was supposed to be available for RED HYDROGEN One owners at a discounted price. This still remains the plan. The discounted price was supposed to be under $5,000. The first price estimate was $6,000 for customers who don’t own HYDROGEN.

During the development of the camera, Jarred Land, however, stated, that these prices will most likely be higher due to many added features. The real final prices for RED Komodo with and without discount further remain unknown.
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If Canon beats Red to the punch with the new too-awesome-to-be-believed camera announcements and heavily undercuts them on price, Red might do well relatively speaking but not anywhere close to Canon numbers. Plus, there's going to be an FX-6 from Sony. And Panasonic S1H, which isn't selling badly after all, might get an external ProRes Raw upgrade. At some point, the DSLR style models should become more accepted on pro sets, if they do the job well.

PS. Canon could also premier the much bandied about C100 MKIII or C300 MKIII/C400 at the NAB or CineGear.
 
Right now, somebody at Canon headquarters: "I told you we could charge $8k for the new R5 camera"

(I'm saying this because it reminds me of the Scarlet vs C300 launch, and because I think Canon is unlikely to look at BM as competition when setting their prices; not sure they'll look at RED either, though: probably Panasonic and Sony)
 
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