Canon R5 Announced with 8k

ahalpert said:
Well I think it's different if it's a low-budget or non-profit entity who can now do something nice instead of something basic (or nothing at all) versus a commercial/corporate/high-end producer who is watering down the quality of their product to save a few bucks.

Like using a gimbal. Are you using a gimbal as an alternative to a proper steadicam? Or as an alternative to using no motion rig at all?
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Fair enough.

And gimbals are a good example. I’d say most of us, or at least a large portion, own at least some type of gimbal and it does give us the option for decent to good or really good movement that we wouldn’t have otherwise because of either budget or logistical/practical reasons. But over the last few years I have seen shows/shoots that were historically SteadiCam move to gimbals, most likely to save money, and the quality of the on-air/end product has suffered.
 
I think this is the concept I am pushing back on here a bit. This is not a high end camera, it is a still camera hybrid and expectations should be appropriated accordingly. If it ends up watering down or lessening higher budget productions then that is a testament in part to its quality/usefulness. The specs are very nice which in turn should produce above average images for the money one has to spend. It is a straight value play with a brand I have used for many years.
 
jbregar said:
I thought I was the only one who thought re-framed 4K looked "off."
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Right there with you, it looks bad to me. It's variable, I know I've seen footage re-framed that way that looked fine, guess it just depends on FOV, quality of the optics used, et.
But on the things I've shot, the footage went from"looks great" to "looks barely acceptable" and definitely not great anymore. It's not the resolution or sharpness, it's just looks cropped.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I have video cameras for live event applications. i plan on using the thing just like a normal hybrid do it all camera as well as my pro stills camera. Just the same as so many use the GH series cameras for. I don't understand your points here Dan. Its a mirrorless camera that can shoot up to 8k RAW with IBIS and great AF. That is supposed to be a good thing. A great tool.
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As you probably know, I like Canon, I've owned or still own and use the C100 MKI, C300 MKI, C300 MKII, C200 and the 80D and I own a dozen EF and EF S lenses so I have nothing against Canon. I agree the AF will be great. The 8K and RAW are mostly insignificant for the majority of users of these sorts of cams.

As far as it being a great tool, if it has rolling shutter like the 5D MKII, EOS R, it won't be a great tool, it'll be a so so tool that will work for some users. Since 8K is of dubious value to most users and since RAW is also debatable as to how useful it is to wedding and event producers, I was curious what else there is to get excited
by on this camera? I've already shot with RF lenses and I don't see what all of the hype is about them. There are a little sharper than EF lenses, a lot more expensive and there are a lot of weird design compromises in several of them. Maybe if they start adding CN E compact zoom or CN E cinema lenses
with an RF mount, that might be interesting but I don't see the great RF switchover as a big deal. And I say this as a fan of Canon. Since I write, review and evaluate technology though, I like to ponder the whys and the marketing angles.

Many end users of all of this gear are not discerning enough and swallow most industry trends hook, line and sinker (3D video, VR/360/FF/Raster size wars, etc.). I like to be a bit more skeptical and look at value equations, roadmaps and strategies because that's how my mind works. I'm obviously not putting down the R5, we don't even really know what it is yet. I'm just
trying to get a handle on why the R5 has been the "IT" camera this season besides it's 8K feature. I think the fact that it will be the first Canon with IBIS could be interesting. We have a benchmark there with the GH5 which the IBIS is ridiculously good on. And the Fujifilm X-T4, which the IBIS isn't nearly as good. So it'll be interesting to see where Canon lands.
I mean, this is a discussion board, right? I thought we were just discussing a future, much hyped product? Really the bottom line is, who will the R5 help make more money? Will it just be a hobbyist camera? Nothing wrong with that, my X-T3 is a hobbyist camera that happens to be so good, I just bought two more of them and they are making me some money
in shooting live streaming and a few regular corporate pieces.
 
If you took away 8K and RAW I'd be just as excited. What I really wanted was a FF camera with great AF that could do 4K60p no-crop and 10-bit 4:2:2 internal. That's why the A7SIII is also in contention. Rolling shutter may be the deciding factor, who knows.

But for a certain type of indy doc/narrative client, camera hype counts for something. Hype over the S1H oddly made people more excited about my S1 even if they wouldn't have used the fancy differentiating features of the S1H anyway.

But 8K COULD be useful SOMETIMES. It's a curiosity.
 
puredrifting said:
Will it just be a hobbyist camera?
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It will definitely be a very professional camera. Lots and lots of portrait photographers (studio/environmental/event) will use this body for very serious work. And that is the primary focus.

I get that we can say "in the context of pro video work", but it won't really change the fact what the camera is. It can be used for many things though.

I'm thinking people into stock photography/videography might want to look into this. Short, controlled clips at a "new" resolution and high quality. Once each new higher resolution goes mainstream, I'm guessing (micro) stock libraries experience another gold rush. And by gold I mean fractions of a cent per $.

So, DR and rolling shutter. Big question marks.
 
Rolling Shutter may be more acceptable in 4K. Of course, the detail might suffer. That's one of those "we'll see when we get there" scenarios.
 
I see it as the first Canon in the space I purchase in without all of the old hurdles - No crop, low bitrate & color info codecs or tech withholding. I do not care for LOG shooting so RAW does mean a lot to me, or 10bit with a nice baked in color profile that I set up. I am hoping the rolling shutter is not an issue with lower resolutions, but we will have to see. If it is, then I may be getting one R5 & one R6.

Can one make money with it? Well, if one can make money with a GH5 then I don't see why one can not with an R5. Since the nice video specs are housed in a still camera that is going to be great, it has value to me to have all of that in one package/system. Had hopes for the Panny S1 system but the stills side did not work out for me.
 
You'll still have to convert the C-Log because that's what RAW will be.

And there's a good chance 10-bit will only be available with C-Log and not the other picture profiles.
 
I do not like "getting the grey out" in editing. So the RAW image will really be a LOG image? Is that how the 1DX mkIII works? I will need to learn more about how it is handled.

If it really is an 8-bit camera in disguise, then my enthusiasm will most likely be lower. :)
 
That's how all of them work.

Unfortunately it's not like a traditional photography RAW workflow.

You'll have to transform the C-Log in post with a LUT, and then grade it (contrast, saturation, tints, recoveries, etc).

It's easy though.
 
NorBro said:
That's how all of them work.

Unfortunately it's not like a traditional photography RAW workflow.

You'll have to transform the C-Log in post with a LUT, and then grade it (contrast, saturation, tints, recoveries, etc).

It's easy though.
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What do you mean all of them?

Lumix cameras let you record 10-bit codecs with whatever picture profile you want.

PS - it looks like Nikon is releasing incremental updates of its Z6 and Z7 later this year. Same sensor but faster processor? 4K60p video it says. 10-bit internally? Not sure.

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/07/06/...orless-cameras-expected-later-this-year.aspx/
 
NorBro said:
That's how all of them work.

Unfortunately it's not like a traditional photography RAW workflow.

You'll have to transform the C-Log in post with a LUT, and then grade it (contrast, saturation, tints, recoveries, etc).

It's easy though.
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That is the same as a photography RAW workflow, you just never see or work with the grey matter in photo RAW. So what you are describing is like LOG shooting+ Kind of like LOG with some more adjustments and bit depth?
 
I combined my posts...was wasting posts on the same thoughts.

___

Right, you don't see it in the stills' RAW because color/contrast is automatically applied by the photography software, and then you can practically non-destructively change whatever you'd like even though it appears already graded.

With any of Canon's RAW, you can use Canon's software to transcode the footage into something that doesn't look "grey". Or when support is available in most major NLEs, you can use one of them to import the footage as C-Log1/2/3 (whatever is available in the camera you're using) and then edit/change it there.

Some software also applies a LUT upon import so you may not see the grey there either (but many people turn it off as not everyone starts working with the default Canon LUTs since there are more available on their website that aren't in the NLEs, or they use other LUTs).

And yes to bit-depth (10-bit or 12-bit depending on the framerate), but Canon's RAW doesn't really have proprietary adjustments in its software...most of the editing still has to be done in the old-fashioned way and how you'd edit anything else.

IMO, it's not real RAW that people may be used to with REDCODE RAW (on the video side).

Think of REDCODE RAW's interface looking like one of your Canon stills in Photoshop. That's a real RAW workflow.

Canon's RAW is not like that depending on which software you use. But it's just very high-quality, malleable footage.
 
Thanks. Does the Canon RAW video have true white balance adjustments like photo RAW? Also, I have never properlysetup a preview LUT for LOG shooting on my GH5. I was hoping RAW video workflows did not have this quirk but it looks like it does. What do you think the preview output will look like when shooting Canon RAW out of the R5? Will it need some sort of LUT to look "normal"?
 
I believe there is a WB adjustment in Resolve and Premiere, but it's not available in FCP X. (It's also in Canon's software too.)

There will be assistance (the 'View Assist' function) in the R5 that will turn your LOG footage into REC709 on the screen so you can view exposure and contrast better.
 
How do you know about the REC709 assistance? We all would expect it unless you have a unit on hand :) The GH5 has this feature too but it has never given a good looking image with the LUTs I have used. Although I should say the image in the EVF was fine, just not on my preview monitor...
 
Dont forget that the R5 will have a RAW bitrate of about 3.2Gbps.

Images have leaked of the R6, which is supposedly 5K oversampled to 4K 60 10-bit video, no RAW, dual UHS-II slots, under $2500, and matching AF as R5! Lower build quality, and the pictures look like 6D-level camera. Flippy screen is nice but probably not super durable

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-is-the-canon-eos-r6/
 
Bassman2003 said:
How do you know about the REC709 assistance? We all would expect it unless you have a unit on hand :) The GH5 has this feature too but it has never given a good looking image with the LUTs I have used. Although I should say the image in the EVF was fine, just not on my preview monitor...
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Because all of their C-Log shooting cameras have it and a few are thousands of dollars less. It's an industry-standard default from everyone at this point.

Keep in mind though that this is just their default 709 option, and you most likely will not be able to import any other LUTs (but that would be nice if you could though).

And obviously post-production may provide you much different results then you remember seeing on the LCD screen. It's something though...better than "grey".
 
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