Canon R5 Announced with 8k

[DLD]

I think it's what RED should have been doing from the start. They got a bit obsessed with the high end / high resolution market...

That's where the market was back in 2005-2007 and it still allows them to make very profitable gear. Now, the technology caught up to the high end market in image quality - more or less - and everything is getting compressed downward. Red is responding but it may be too late.

PS. Alexa LF's are, obviously, picking up a huge portion of what was once Red's market share.

 

[John Brawley]

That's where the market was back in 2005-2007 and it still allows them to make very profitable gear. Now, the technology caught up to the high end market in image quality - more or less - and everything is getting compressed downward. Red is responding but it may be too late.

PS. Alexa LF's are, obviously, picking up a huge portion of what was once Red's market share.

And Sony venice before the LF.

I think it was owner operators that basically own RED. Rental companies weren't that excited to get into them and did it reluctantly and when they had to. Basically to service what used to be their exclusive market, the Netflix Originals. (and the other 4K delivery require-ing streamers)

As soon as an alternative showed up (Sony Venice) then they started loosing ground. Mini LF seals the deal.

I think they've been squeezed for a while in that market and Komodo is pitched perfectly at their natural users....

JB

 

[rob norton]

larger payloads mainly, higher degree of stabilization and better camera integration (with an Arri camera of course).

I spoke to one of the the main car / pursuit camera operators on Ford Vs Ferrari at the bSC show and he showed me as lot of their rigs and the SRH3 was outperforming way more expensive and larger heads.

JB

That's some good mail, thanks again.

Staying OT - Re operating, Melbourne style is really popular in Brisbane.

 

[Guest]

I think it's what RED should have been doing from the start. They got a bit obsessed with the high end / high resolution market.

I don’t think so.

If Red had jumped in, all of Canikony could have easily sped up their raw video capabilities. And who's to say if Black magic cameras would have been what they are today. They enjoy complete freedom till Zcam came along. Now that Red has streamline things and made money on being able to mark up things and money from patents, they are in a good place to introduce a little raw camera. Canikony is still sleeping, but not for long.

Although, i wish Red had. Would have liked to see cameras develop faster in the low end. But in any case, here we are now.

 

[ahalpert]

I don’t think so.

If Red had jumped in, all of Canikony could have easily sped up their raw video capabilities. And who's to say if Black magic cameras would have been what they are today. They enjoy complete freedom till Zcam came along. Now that Red has streamline things and made money on being able to mark up things and money from patents, they are in a good place to introduce a little raw camera. Canikony is still sleeping, but not for long.

Although, i wish Red had. Would have liked to see cameras develop faster in the low end. But in any case, here we are now.

You said somewhere previously that you don't recommend RED but I didn't fully get why?

Also, which type and budget level of production would you say is most inviting to RED owner ops? I have some ideas but would love to hear yours.

And in response to JB's comment about Komodo pricing - I think this RED may require less to get up and going for a basic shooting package since it has some controls on the body and uses non-proprietary batteries and media. But the brain costs $6k I believe (and $5k if you own a hydrogen).

 

[Guest]

You said somewhere previously that you don't recommend RED but I didn't fully get why?

I wasn't recommending it in that moment. I used to very much dislike the "weapon" motif, and bad boys playing airsoft persona, but they have toned it down a bit. So, I recommend them from time to time.

Also, which type and budget level of production would you say is most inviting to RED owner ops? I have some ideas but would love to hear yours.

Then I might like to hear your thoughts. I really don't know what "Red" means anymore. Their cameras vary quite a bit across the years and sensors.

 

[ahalpert]

Then I might like to hear your thoughts. I really don't know what "Red" means anymore. Their cameras vary quite a bit across the years and sensors.

I couldn't say for sure, but I think the current appeal of RED would be largely budgetary because you can get high resolution high frame rate footage from Alexa and Venice now and people on this forum seem to prefer those cameras. But REDs are at a modestly lower price point and now you can get used Epics for <$10k.

I *think* there's demand in the corporate/commercial/music video/narrative world for RED if they're not going to shoot on Alexa and want high resolution RAW footage.

Like there was a biotech firm delivering a human embryo freezer by crane to a midtown building last year that put out an RFP for RED owner ops because they wanted to record the delivery in 4K+ high frame rates. I assume they wanted the most detailed archival record possible, plus the opportunity to pull stills or reframe the footage for various screen formats. Plus they have probably heard of RED.

When I was ACing (up to about 7 years ago), so many indy projects I worked on were RED. Part of it was probably budgetary, part of it was future-proofing for 4K, and part of it was producers trying to take control of the process by allowing themselves to reframe in post and make greater adjustments in RAW.

But yeah I feel like I see corporate outfits considering them a step up from the FS7. And I see cinematic productions considering them a step up from Black Magic but below an Alexa LF.

I mean, they're good cameras... I've seen a lot of crappy stuff made with them but only, I think, because the high resolution RAW invites the fix-it-in-post-and-reframe-later mentality.

 

[DLD]

Red's market is getting eaten up by the LF's and Venice on the high end (not sure about Venice's sales but if JB can see them on sets, it's good enough for me) and FX-9, C300 MKIII and C500 MKII on the low. Varicam/LT has a small portion of the market too. DSLR style, BMD and Z Cams are a tier below the tier below Red.

Lower prices, from the basic economics supply&demand, will help all market participants sell more units. The problem with Red was that their margins will be crushed too and, for a company that moved very few pieces at very high margins, this may signal the end of the road. BMD and Z Cam don't have the same problems and may end up in the very thick of the action for, at least, a couple of years. After that, the Japanese cartel will begin to sell their Thai made 8K cameras for under $5,000 and it will end like a musical instrument market - from a $20,000,000 Strad to a $300 Strat in a blink of an eye.

 

[John Brawley]

I don’t think so.

If Red had jumped in, all of Canikony could have easily sped up their raw video capabilities.

Errr no.

Canon don't care about video. They accidently had a smash hit with the 5D mk2. Did they do anything to tap that market ? No they did not.

Because the company that makes that camera is a seperate entity with different engineers and managers to the one that makes canon video cameras (Cinema eos). They found they were literally in competition with themselves and they didn't like that.

Nikon don't care about video.

Sony stills don't care about video (well not that much)

These corporations make photo cameras. Stills cameras. We're in a bubble here thinking that DSLR cameras are video oriented. They aren't, except for a couple of models that are designated as such (PannY)

When RED launched, the only way to shoot video with a 35 sized sensor was the 5Dmk2. That was it. Arri had the D20 as a rental only sort of, but it wasn't really ready and that was it. Thompson Viper (2/3") and Sony had the F900 (2/3"). Dalsa had as 4K camera before RED, (a lot of Red-Heads seem to forget that) and were doing 4K uncompressed as well, but with off-board recording, rental only and only in LA.

That was what was radical. A $17K s35 sized sensor shooting a new digital RAW codec. There's three very radical ideas in that one sentence. There's a reason it's called RED.

But I think they failed to deliver on their initial promise, one they worked hard to cultivate. 3K for 3K anyone ? That announced camera with their own forum was them going all in. They couldn't make it work.

The RED upgrade obsolescence is obsolete mantra really sucks you into buying more and more expensive cameras, while getting a nominal discount. I mean it's not making obsolescence obsolete any more than buying regular updates of any other camera. I always feel like there's caveats and gotch-ya's with RED and in the early days nine times out of ten when you had problems it was "wait till you see the next firmware / upgrade / model release". It's like they have a kind of pyramid scheme of RED only accessories and modules and you have to keep investing ! I've tested successfully the Ranger and DXL2 recently and didn't go there for other reasons, but they are both hella expensive options. They are not the low cost revolution that the RED brand TRADES IN of rebels working outside the system to give it to the system.

That's why to me I say the Komodo is RED returning to their roots, to their original brand promise. A good thing.

And who's to say if Black magic cameras would have been what they are today.

I was the first non BMD person to know about their brand new camera and I like to think it's because of conversations I was having with the CEO of BMD that he went off and started making cameras. It was a natural progression. They'd just bought Davinci. They'd just bought Teranex. Capture cards where they made their money, were becoming less important to editors.

I do know that he doesn't care AT ALL what anyone else is doing. He actually has ZERO interest or even KNOWLEDGE in what other brands are doing. Clueless. He doesn't know what an A7S or S1H is. Which is why when they launched they didn't make a big deal of it, but actually it was the first self contained internally recording uncompressed RAW movie camera. They beat Arri by a few months who were only RAW external to an additional 5 figure priced add on called a Codex when they launched. I don't think they even knew they were the first to do it. Look at the original large URSA. Look at their design choices. They really are happy to work in isolastion designing cameras with the improvements THEY think are important to their customers. Not copying others.

It wasn't even going to have ProRes originally. I had discussions with Grant and the camera team about including a more functional codec when DNG is just so unwieldy. He's anti-compression so that's why the camera was initially only RAW uncompressed.

And if you think about it....If you had a BMD hyperdeck shuttle in around 2011, if you take one of those and add a screen to one side, and a sensor with as lens mount to the other, you end up with the OG 2.5K BMCC. Half the work was done with the Hyperdeck.

They went with EF mount because Grant was really trying to offer users something better than a 5D that only shot on a crappy 8 Bit codec. He figured he could make something for the 5D user base that wanted high dynamic range and no compression. Except the sensor they came up with was not the right size. Without realising how important that is for some, they chose that sensor because it gave the best dynamic range (dual gain like an ALEV) and a lens mount that didn't really make sense.

And it was cheap. A similar price to a 5D at the time. And they sold a lot of them. Way more than cameras than RED ever sold. And Canon didn't try to compete did they ? They created the C300 instead.

That's the extent of how they came up with that camera. They initially weren't sure how many would sell so hadn't ordered a lot of parts to build the gazillions of them that were ordered. Leading to a lot of delays in delivery and learning how to make cameras the really hard way, promising something and then having to deliver your promise.

BMD haven't stratified their cameras like the big guys do. Rarely to their models directly replace another model unless they call is "G2" like with the UMP. Each new camera sit's in a unique usage.

Canon, Sony and Nikon can't help themselves. They have to constantly have protections and therefore restrictions for what some equipment can and can't do. It's why hacking doesn't work with BMD cameras. The very idea that you can change the code to prevent an artificial restriction is outrageous. Hello Sony.

They enjoy complete freedom till Zcam came along.

I feel like ZCAM are doing something different. They are focussed on the modular box model of a camera. Right up your alley ! Their look and IQ still isn't there either. From what I understand with the sensors they are using, they're mostly running in 10 bit mode which is why they don't really stand up to like for like comparisons. But that's cool, because they are at least doing cameras that no one else is doing. That's the key here, differentiation. ZRAW workflow still also seems to be a dog as well.

Now that Red has streamline things and made money on being able to mark up things and money from patents, they are in a good place to introduce a little raw camera. Canikony is still sleeping, but not for long.

High value cameras don't necessarily make RED a lot of money. Its volume and sales. I used to see a lot more RED cameras on set 5 years ago. Now I don't. Because everyone else is offering something similar or better for a similar price. Defending patents also costs a HUGE amount of money. I mean APPLE came after them. That wouldn't have been cheap to mount a defense of their IP. I suspect it's their deeply pocketed founder that keeps them going in these times.

As to the sleeping giant....

Goodness me, people said this in 2012 when the upstart company first started making their little "toy" cameras (Quote I heard form a RED employee)

If you go back to various forums around nab in 2013, 2014, 2015, there was this constant hope that this would be the year that the japanese giants would awake. Everyone hoped THIS would be the GH that would do it...Some hope also came along in the form of Digital Bolex, who admirably failed. They didn't sell enough cameras.

AJA Cion came out around the same time, many saying that AJA did what BMD should have done and what a great camera it would be. AJA would have a smash hit because it addressed all the shortcomings of BMD....DOA. Again, no one bought it. It failed.

Silicon Imaging had a smash hit with the Si2K, even got a Cinematography oscar. They never made another cinema camera. Because it's actually a tiny tiny tiny small tiny market. Photography still rules 10:1....

You might not like the features, but as AJA and DB show, the "best" models as judged by the market aren't the ones that survive in the market. RED had some very very deep pockets and backing by a very wealthy individual who could afford to run the company at a loss for decades. Maybe it's profitable, maybe it's not. It's hard to tell.

Although, i wish Red had. Would have liked to see cameras develop faster in the low end. But in any case, here we are now.

Like I say, Komodo is a return to roots for RED. I suspect it will be a hit.

And the R5 in 2020 is the first actual nod Canon have made to the changes that have been in play with other companies for many years. It's taken a long long time to get to this point and there are still cynics who think Canon will cripple it in some way in the details....

JB

 

[Guest]

I think the thing, is to get the camera that works for your clients, and the one that allows you to shoot in your way.

The age of the cheap camera is around the corner, but it is not here yet. Alexa, Venice, and Gemini all punch above the $9K-$16K cameras. Alexa and Venice are tanks, and Gemini is the only light weight option with the best battery life of the three. And a Mini LF is way too expensive. I think people get into zones, thinking about cameras, and the realities are often different.

But given the pandemic, I can't justify any camera purchase at this time. Prior to the pandemic, I could say that while good cheap cameras are coming, I can shoot on a nice camera with clients now. That isn't true anymore. May be 2yrs before that all changes completely. So, I can only say, a $2500 Zcam looks pretty pretty good.

 

[Guest]

Errr no.

It is easy to look back and say what someone should have done in hindsight. Hey, it is 2020. Though, even you close with

And the R5 in 2020 is the first actual nod Canon have made to the changes that have been in play with other companies for many years. It's taken a long long time to get to this point and there are still cynics who think Canon will cripple it in some way in the details....

My point was that Red was fine being the only high end high res camera. if Red had stirred up the competition in the low end, the last 10years would have been different. Canon released a $16K 8bit 50mbps HD camera. Wouldn't have happened like that if there was a $5K Red Raw package. But in the end, they didn't and apparently they didn't need to. And believe me, I wish they had. But to say canon doesn't care about video, is a pretty weird thing to say. Canon still division, sure, but Canon? Anyways, it doesn't matter, it is all in the past.




What I find a little humorous, is that a couple days ago I was trading posts with you about mirrorless cameras. I was saying how I like a sculpted self contained mirrorless body for video. I even specifically said that I prefer the mirrorless shape over the Zcam baby boxes. So to see you write:

I feel like ZCAM are doing something different. They are focussed on the modular box model of a camera. Right up your alley !

was an odd observation, because it was so random and wrong. even though I can kind of appreciate the personal touch.

but what are we doing here, John?

 

[ahalpert]

Maybe John is confusing your views with mine. I actually *like* modular box cameras. Look - every camera is modular. Look at all the accessories John had on Arri and Sony cameras in the pictures of various handheld configurations he posted. You can add another handle, monitor, evf, cinetape or whatever to anything. The difference is that a large camera can't strip down as small.

I can understand ENG guys who want a no-fuss shoulder-mounted camera, but I don't see a problem for anyone else.

Stills divisions definitely care about video now that photographers are asked to shoot more and more of it. I see so many blog posts about it from photographers I follow. But they won't be shooting narrative.

My problem with z cam is my same problem with bmd: reliability. Maybe their cameras will become more trustworthy over time like RED's did.

 

[DLD]

The Japanese are grinders rather than flyers. A run-of-the-mill model in their lineup is basically a two year old technology (per weight class). But they do grind forward. They cripple, they delay but they still grind. It's a careful, incremental approach that's quite different from the BMD or Z Cam. But, as a Russian saying goes - "drive slower, get there in one piece" - they're getting to a point where a consumer/enthusiast hybrid can be really, really good for both stills and video. It's not an LF but it's good enough for most folks and that's indeed where the money is.

PS. The cartel does use its product as cash cows. Each model has a long production cycle, despite any technological innovation that are happening world wide. But, judging from the sales lists, the consumers don't even care that much and keep buying 3-4 year old models anyway. Had the figures been negatively effected, the manufacturers may have tried adapting faster. Right now, they're responding to the drastic/calamitous drop in sales - even before CV-19 - by both blaming the smartphones and trying to accelerate the performance and the feature set of their latest offerings. This shift may be permanent because, otherwise, the cartel's future is not looking rosy at all.

 

[ahalpert]

Does anyone know the bit-depth of the R5 8k RAW capture?

The 1DXmk3 captures 12-bit RAW, but 5.5K @ 60fps is about half the pixels/second of 8K @ 30fps. So the R5 will probably be limited to 10-bit RAW capture?

 

[John Brawley]

Does anyone know the bit-depth of the R5 8k RAW capture?

The 1DXmk3 captures 12-bit RAW, but 5.5K @ 60fps is about half the pixels/second of 8K @ 30fps. So the R5 will probably be limited to 10-bit RAW capture?

Interestingly, they never seem to specificy on the 1DXmk3 if it's 12bit LIN or Log.

I'm not that familiar with Canon RAW video so googled and found this....

"If the professional cinema Canon Log OETF is deployed, that simultaneous recording video will be recorded
at a 10-bit depth."

From this document
https://media.the-digital-picture.com/Information/Canon-EOS-1D-X-Mark-III-Video-White-Paper.pdf

And under OETF I find this....

"Inherent to the new recording strategies of the EOS-1D X Mark III is the utilization of the
professional cinema Canon Log OETF that supports internal 4K YCbCr 4:2:2 @ 10-bit depth
recording. This ensures faithful capture of the full 12 T-stop exposure latitude of the image sensor,
while lowering the total data payload to be recorded.
Canon had developed a logarithmic image data representation for the Cinema EOS C300 and C500
cameras, tailored to optimize the capture of the wide dynamic range of the CMOS sensor employed
in these cameras. This optoelectronic transfer function (OETF) is labeled the Canon Log
characteristic. Canon Log is a perceptually uniform digital transfer characteristic that transforms,
within the camera processing system, the high bit depth per RGB color component linear output of
the A/D converters into a quasi-logarithmic nonlinear transfer function. "

It's a confusing statement because it's implying that Canon Log is this OETF function, and it seems like it can only be 10 bit, but's also referencing internal encoded video (which is not RAW) so maybe it's a lost in translation scenario.

Is this what Canon RAW does through their software ? Is Canon LOG the same as OETF ? Is this all .CRM ?

I know that it can record internal 10 bit encoded videos so maybe it's related, BUT when I read this, together with the fact they don't specify the encoding of their 12 bit spec, I assume it means 12 bit LIN encoded as 10 bit LOG using the Canon LOG QETF.

AKA really 10 bit Canon LOG, not 12 bit Lin. That's a guess by reading between the lines. Because normally you wouldn't hide that info. But I can't find it. RED are similar in being opaque about this stuff.

The skeptic in me says it's 12 bit (LIN) stored as 10 bit LOG. A guess though.

Arri are 16 bit lin, stored as 12 bit LOG
RED are 16 bit lin.
Sony are 16 bit lin in RAW or OCN
BRAW is 16 bit lin stored as 12 bit log.

Does anyone know if the 1DMK3 is 12 bit LIN or LOG encoded ?

JB

 

[AndreeOnline]

Does anyone know if the 1DMK3 is 12 bit LIN or LOG encoded ?

JB

I’m not at a computer right now, but I’ve seen it in black-and-white that Canon Rawl Light is 12 bit up to 30 frames per second and 10 bits at higher frame rates.

I don’t think Canon Raw Light is recorded in linear, but rather stored by default in Canon Log 2. So my guess is 12 bit log up to 30 frames per second, and 10 bits above that.

Your first quote about Canon Log being recorded in 10 bit is in the context of 8 bit MP4 footage. That is, if you’re shooting 8 bit ‘Natural’ PP and switch to Canon Log the camera will automatically switch to record in 10 bit HEVC.

This is how I remember reading about it. But I haven’t bought and I’m not planning to buy that camera so I haven’t dug quite as deep as I normally would.

 

[John Brawley]

I’m not at a computer right now, but I’ve seen it in black-and-white that Canon Rawl Light is 12 bit up to 30 frames per second and 10 bits at higher frame rates.

I don’t think Canon Raw Light is recorded in linear, but rather stored by default in Canon Log 2. So my guess is 12 bit log up to 30 frames per second, and 10 bits above that.

Your first quote about Canon Log being recorded in 10 bit is in the context of 8 bit MP4 footage. That is, if you’re shooting 8 bit ‘Natural’ PP and switch to Canon Log the camera will automatically switch to record in 10 bit HEVC.

This is how I remember reading about it. But I haven’t bought and I’m not planning to buy that camera so I haven’t dug quite as deep as I normally would.

Got it. Thanks !

JB

 

[ahalpert]

Therefore we anticipate that the R5 can shoot 30fps 12-bit LOG 8K RAW video? Seems like a viable competitor to the BMPCC6K for RAW recording, no? Is there something I'm missing, JB?

 

[NorBro]

Here's the lesson I learned in my late 20s after blowing a small fortune on chasing cameras:

It doesn't matter what the white papers say.

___

There are cameras that offer unique and pretty images that shoot 10-bit ProRes HD (not just ARRI).

So even if _______ has 100-bit RAW, who cares if it doesn't look like anything special?

Trust me - I love Canon. But in 15 years, I still haven't seen anything from any of their cameras that has that blockbuster look and feel that ARRI, RED and Blackmagic can have. (And I don't think it's about other factors like lighting and post and set, etc. because I owned REDs and understand from first hand experience how easy it is to make them look really good. And of course Blackmagics.)

___

So IMO - sure, it's a competitor on paper, but not always on the screen.

 

[ahalpert]

Here's the lesson I learned in my late 20s after blowing a small fortune on chasing cameras:

It doesn't matter what the white papers say.

___

There are cameras that offer unique and pretty images that shoot 10-bit ProRes HD (not just ARRI).

So even if _______ has 100-bit RAW, who cares if it doesn't look like anything special?

Trust me - I love Canon. But in 15 years, I still haven't seen anything from any of their cameras that has that blockbuster look and feel that ARRI, RED and Blackmagic can have. (And I don't think it's about other factors like lighting and post and set, etc. because I owned REDs and understand from first hand experience how easy it is to make them look really good. And of course Blackmagics.)

___

So IMO - sure, it's a competitor on paper, but not always on the screen.

Obviously the proof is in the pudding and I would not order the camera without watching reviews and playing with sample footage (even if I were having a good year financially.)

BUT Canon cameras do have very fine still photos. It's not as if the sensors are incapable. So much quality is lost in the video processing.

AND white papers DO matter in the sense that every camera you referenced has some tech specs advantages. ARRI with dual gain output from high-bit depth ADCs. RED with 16-bit RAW. Blackmagic with high dynamic range sensor choices + minimally compressed codecs and 12-bit RAW capture.

That being said, Canon has already implemented 12-bit Canon RAW Light, so if you have experience working with that and feel it's inferior to the other brands, then that's a bad sign. Most of the stuff I've seen shot with it looks pretty rich, however. I was interested in the C200 but for the lack of 4k 10-bit 4:2:2. The R5 may be cheap enough and feature-rich enough that I might buy it even if I can't use it as an A camera on C300/FS7 type jobs because of its form factor.