ShannonRawls
Well-known member
Gotcha!!!
Canon or Sony?
- Thread starter jcapurro
- Start date
Elton
Veteran
What I want to see is dynamic range examples from the V1U that show a big improvement over other 1/3" CCD HD cameras. I'd also like to see comparisons of 1/4" DOF and 1/3" DOF at equivalent apertures and focal lengths. Lastly, I'd like to see just how well the V1U performs in lowlight--then we'll have a good idea of how this camera stacks up.
Personally, it's bothersome to me that they shrunk the sensor size.
Personally, it's bothersome to me that they shrunk the sensor size.
Yeah, and thats what makes deciding so difficult. Its something like this:
A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation
V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability
Come to think of it, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each has a different feature set. Its a shame you have to choose between those rather than combine them.
A1 = More resolution, Larger Sensor size, optical image-stabilzation
V1 = HDMI, better lattitude, low-lux/low-noise capability
Come to think of it, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each has a different feature set. Its a shame you have to choose between those rather than combine them.
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Fugitive said:
How do we know the Sony has better latitude? Are we just going by the fact that CMOS is better or sony's marketing?
The low light is also in question, with smaller imagers, the low light could be worse, regardless of sony's lowlight strength in the past.
We'll just have to wait and see.
On another note, I'm gonna go with the Canon because Canon's president is waaay cuter than Sony's president! If you think about it long enough...it makes sense.
ShannonRawls
Well-known member
Both of these are partly incorrect. Speculation is what causes arguments, gets people banned and how guys lose potential good friends on the internet.Fugitive said:
The honest truth is:
A1 = Larger Sensor size
V1 = HDMI
That's ALL we know and can compare as of today.
Fugitive said:
Is the Sony not stabilized, or just not optically? I thought Sony was all about 'SteadyShot' as every cam I've ever seen by them has it so I just assumed...
Also another question about capture. If I shot with 24f on a Canon (Not the A1 obviously but hypothetically speaking) would I be able to use FCP if I used a card like Black Magic to capture the footage? I really don't want to have to convert the footage using another software before editing and this is a BIG downside for me on the Canon front. And 'Wait for the next Final Cut version' is not really a valid argument for me since it has not been either announced (so it could be a long time) or feature previewed (Who knows, it may not even support 24f).
Grrr. Decisions Decisions.
ShannonRawls
Well-known member
Yes,
With a Blackmagic or Aja card you can shoot with ANY HD camera on the planet and be OK. And with Apple Computers, you can pick whatever Codec you want. The RGB/Component signal is HD and available on all HD cameras and Apple is great for allowing all it's installed codecs to be used during analog/digital capture. (unlike PC)
P.S.
I think you missed the memo. Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 was realease 72 hours ago. it supports ALL modes of the Canon, even 24f natively.
With a Blackmagic or Aja card you can shoot with ANY HD camera on the planet and be OK. And with Apple Computers, you can pick whatever Codec you want. The RGB/Component signal is HD and available on all HD cameras and Apple is great for allowing all it's installed codecs to be used during analog/digital capture. (unlike PC)
P.S.
I think you missed the memo. Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 was realease 72 hours ago. it supports ALL modes of the Canon, even 24f natively.
rawfa
Veteran
Fugitive said:
Actualy, sony representatives said on the V1's "premiere" that it doesn't handle low light "that well". They said the FX1/Z1 are much better in low light. Aparently, the V1 is supposed to have wider dynamic range and a very good perfomance on properly lit situations. Actualy you can see on the parachuting clip when the parachuter is against the sky you can still see detail (and it didn't look over exposed and blown). The truth is that we can talk all we want but only when the V1 is release we'll find out more about it's true capacity with REAL tests. As for the new canons, I guess we can all expect the same results as the H1, since it uses the same sensor (with more image control).
Yikes, I am under-fire!
I was wrong to speculate about the V1, but we already know that the A1 uses the XL-H1 chip, so how could I be wrong about the extra-resolution? Besides, wasnt it a fact that the A1 would use Optical Image Stabilization?
Oh, BTW Shanon, Looksee what I found in the Canon forum:
I was following your guidelines in speculating? hmm...
@Jcapurro: The sony camera uses digital anti-shke method whereby it shoots a sligthly larger image, and crops out the shake. Works fine. OIS is better though.
ShannonRawls said:
I was wrong to speculate about the V1, but we already know that the A1 uses the XL-H1 chip, so how could I be wrong about the extra-resolution? Besides, wasnt it a fact that the A1 would use Optical Image Stabilization?
Oh, BTW Shanon, Looksee what I found in the Canon forum:
ShannonRawls said:
I was following your guidelines in speculating? hmm...
@Jcapurro: The sony camera uses digital anti-shke method whereby it shoots a sligthly larger image, and crops out the shake. Works fine. OIS is better though.
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ShannonRawls said:
Awesome thanks for the info! So basically, if I get the sony and I shoot tethered using that cool (and cheap!!!) black magic HDMI card I can record off the sony in 4:2:2 uncompressed direct to the hard disk array in my computer and tell the mac it's whatever format I choose? Cool!
And thanks for the update on FCP also, I had in fact missed the memo and it didn't come up in Software Update, so it's getting DL'ed from apple.com as I type this.
You guys were supposed to make this decision easier! Damn.
tnle2
Well-known member
Fugitive said:
Do you know this for sure? I can't find anything directly from Sony saying either way what it is. But several online articles refer to the HVR-V1U's image stabilizer as "Super Steadyshot optical image stabilizer."
The Canon A1/G1 definitely has an optical image stabilizer.
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ShannonRawls
Well-known member
ha good one Fugitive....only difference is, I own/operate/use the cameras I speculate on. You'll never see me tell people what's "best" on something that's not available yet. It leaves you open for questioning like Tim Le is doing above.....with the possibility of being flat out wrong. LOLFugitive said:I was following your guidelines in speculating? hmm...
but i feel you.
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ShannonRawls said:
Yeah... V1u has both options. So those who want to get a Component AJA card can... those who want to spend a whopping 250.00 on an HDMI capture card by Blackmagic can. Personally, Sony's HDMI out option was already interesting enough... then Blackmagic announces the perfect card for me at a 250.00 dollar amount.
It's got me considering, that's for damned sure.
Shanon you are absolutely right. I dont own the cameras to speculate on, but heck, these cameras arent out yet so ANY discussion on them is going to involve speculation. Cant really be helped. If its only the facts, then what is there to discuss? Besides, I am not the only person who has to eat his words, if need may be. See Chris Hurd:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-44866.html
Tim, Super SteadyShot can be Optical Image Stablization, or electronic. With the Sony marketing strategy, its hard to tell. But "observing" the circumstances, I was ahem...speculating..that it would have electronic IS. Frankly, I think if the V1 had OIS Sony would be making a BIG deal out if it, like Canon does. At the moment, I dont see that happening. So i'll keep my reservations.
If it "does" turn out to have OIS, groovy for the consumers!
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-44866.html
Tim Le said:
Tim, Super SteadyShot can be Optical Image Stablization, or electronic. With the Sony marketing strategy, its hard to tell. But "observing" the circumstances, I was ahem...speculating..that it would have electronic IS. Frankly, I think if the V1 had OIS Sony would be making a BIG deal out if it, like Canon does. At the moment, I dont see that happening. So i'll keep my reservations.
If it "does" turn out to have OIS, groovy for the consumers!
tnle2
Well-known member
True, I have noticed over the years the lower-end Sony camcorders have started to use an EIS version of Steadyshot. And the DVInfo link you gave was for the lower end A1/HC1/HC3 cameras.Fugitive said:
But since the Z1U definitely uses an optical image stabilization (see this PDF) I would give the benefit of the doubt that a high-end camera such as the V1U would use the same system. I do see your point about Sony marketing making a big deal of this if it were true, but then again, for some reason complete information on this cameras is still sparse. For example, on the V1U mini-site, the "Functions" and "Design" pages still aren't working.
So since we don't know for sure yet what it is, I'm just trying to limit misinformation from statements that appear to be facts when they are not or at least ask for confirmation.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm as interested in the V1 as the rest of you, but frankly I wouldn't trust Sony's marketing as far as I could throw 'em. They slapped a CineAlta badge on the XDCAM-HD things. They call it 24P when in fact it's interlaced. They call it "variable frame rate" when in fact it drops to half resolution at any frame rate above 30fps, because it's interlaced. Chris Hurd was relying on the tradition of them calling electronic stabilization "SteadyShot" and optical stabilization "Super SteadyShot", so when the A1 had "Super SteadyShot" that's leading us to believe it's optical stabilization, but it isn't. Marketing changed the "rules", they now have an electronic EIS stabilization system but they call it by the same name that they always used to reserve for optical OIS.
So you can't make any assumptions whatsoever anymore. I will not assume that the V1 has optical stabilization until it's somewhere documented and proven. Nowhere in their marketing materials, data sheets, or anywhere else do they mention anything about optical image stabilization. The A1U is marketed in their same professional line and it has electronic stabilization, so there is precedent. I would tend to think it's electronic until proven otherwise.
All over their marketing they talk about 1920x1080x60P @ 4:2:2 for the V1, even though there's no way to get access to any type of 60p (read the fine print and you'll see that the best you can get out of it is an interpolated 1440x1080x60ix4:2:0). Now they're out there saying that the only real difference between CineFrame 24 and true 24p is that you can use lower shutter speeds (1/48 and 1/24, whereas CF24 was restricted to 1/60). Which has my red alert sirens going off -- are they going to do it again? Is the V1 really an interlaced product, and moreso, is it the horrible CineFrame 24 repackaged and just "called" 24p? That interview with Mr. Ott certainly did a lot to take away the "warm & fuzzy" feeling I was starting to get from Sony again. Fortunately in other places they do directly contradict this notion by saying flat-out "for the first time, Sony has introduced progressive scan acquisition" so the camera is probably fine, and the interview just shows that Mr. Ott doesn't have a clue as to the difference between CF24 and 24P. But you can bet I'm gonna test it to see that it does truly deliver proper 24fps motion rendition before I believe it, based on what they've said!
So you can't make any assumptions whatsoever anymore. I will not assume that the V1 has optical stabilization until it's somewhere documented and proven. Nowhere in their marketing materials, data sheets, or anywhere else do they mention anything about optical image stabilization. The A1U is marketed in their same professional line and it has electronic stabilization, so there is precedent. I would tend to think it's electronic until proven otherwise.
All over their marketing they talk about 1920x1080x60P @ 4:2:2 for the V1, even though there's no way to get access to any type of 60p (read the fine print and you'll see that the best you can get out of it is an interpolated 1440x1080x60ix4:2:0). Now they're out there saying that the only real difference between CineFrame 24 and true 24p is that you can use lower shutter speeds (1/48 and 1/24, whereas CF24 was restricted to 1/60). Which has my red alert sirens going off -- are they going to do it again? Is the V1 really an interlaced product, and moreso, is it the horrible CineFrame 24 repackaged and just "called" 24p? That interview with Mr. Ott certainly did a lot to take away the "warm & fuzzy" feeling I was starting to get from Sony again. Fortunately in other places they do directly contradict this notion by saying flat-out "for the first time, Sony has introduced progressive scan acquisition" so the camera is probably fine, and the interview just shows that Mr. Ott doesn't have a clue as to the difference between CF24 and 24P. But you can bet I'm gonna test it to see that it does truly deliver proper 24fps motion rendition before I believe it, based on what they've said!