Canon is listening. Will Panasonic Follow?

[shzr]

Go, or stay, with whoever and whatever makes you comfortable.

But when it took Canon a year to add the manual controls update,

Just a correction, it was not more than a year. It was more like 6-7 mos. MarkII was release around Oct 08 w/ firmware released on June 09, with communication from Canon in between.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10249950-39.html
http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20080917_5dmkii.html

And people couldn't really get a Mark II till 09

 

[Ben_B]

Not necessarily given the way the product cycle works differently for consumer devices vs pro devices...there isn't a replacement on the 5D mk II on the horizon, and yet we can probably expect a GH1 replacement announced sometime within the next 6 months...so I think you have to look at announcements at a percentage of the way through a product's shelf life.

Anyway that said, I don't really expect anything from them, no more than I expected anything from Canon. However, Canon just announced a firmware fix that won't be out for months...if Panny is working on something all they have to do is say it...but of course they won't because they can't promise things that they then might not be able to deliver.

I love this camera and I'm keeping it, no doubt. Besides, right now my camera shoots 24p and my friend's 5D doesn't And his will likely never shoot 60p. I got the GH1 because I needed it for projects this fall and winter...I'm a student and don't have a lot of money so I'm sure it will serve me long after that, but I got it cause I needed a camera now and I have one, I am not dependent on it being improved in the future...but oh my word would it be nice.

It's not so much about wanting it improved so much as it is about something totally different: being treated as inferior. I am a filmmaker. I may be a student but my creativity and technical skill (thanks in no small part to this forum) can rival many pros out there. I bought this camera because I thought (rightly so) that it would help enable my creativity more than cameras many times its price from Panasonic broadcast. However, because of the way Panasonic is structured, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling.

I work in IT as well. When we have a problem with a macintosh and we call up Apple, it doesn't matter if it's with a server or with a mac pro or with an iMac, it usually doesn't take more than an hour on the phone before we're put through to an engineer that designed the hardware, or wrote the part of the operating system in question. We bring bugs to their attention, they help us work through them, and then they make sure they're fixed in the next patch (hell we've gotten all but our names on the patch notes). Does it matter to them that it's a consumer product or not? No. What matters to them is what their customer is using it for and what the problem is, or even if there is no problem, what the customer is trying to do with it.

I'm not saying that Panasonic needs to do this, or that I need to talk to whoever decided to put pulldown on the GH1 on the phone directly, or whoever wrote the software side stuff for auto gain control...but if they're not even giving us 10% of the transparency or access that Apple gives us, even when dealing with consumer products.

Yeah, with my IT work we're not consumers, but we're using consumer products for a lot of the stuff (the fact that Apple is now selling a Mac mini that ships with OSX Server should show how these lines are being increasingly blurred) we do. The reason we get help from Apple is because they care about what we're doing with their stuff, and they care when it's broken or if there's features that are more convoluted than they need to be, or features that should be added.

Yeah your average consumer might not be able to get in touch with an engineer at Apple, but we're a relatively small outfit....we are to the average mac user what the average DVXuser is to the average video using consumer...and they take care of us.

 

[Barry_Green]

However, because of the way Panasonic is structured, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling.

The GH1 is built and sold through Panasonic Consumer. It's not about "classifying" it as consumer, it's that the consumer division built and sold it. Broadcast is a different company. Different corporation, different employees, different structure, different everything. Different warranties, different customer support policies, etc. Panasonic Broadcast works a lot more like the Apple you're describing.

If I substitute a couple of words in your quote, I think the distinction can be made a lot more clearly:

However, because my camera was made by Nikon, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the Panasonic pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling

Same basic thing. Panasonic Consumer is not Panasonic Broadcast, any more than Nikon is Panasonic Broadcast. Panasonic Broadcast has made the commitment to interact with us daily, entirely accessibly. Nikon and Canon and JVC and Sony don't do that, and neither does Panasonic Consumer.

Doesn't mean that none of those companies read the boards, because they all do. But they don't interact with us.

If you don't like that feeling, perhaps it's best to not buy the consumer product, but stick with what the broadcast division offers. Same as if you like the service you receive at the Lexus dealership, don't go buying a Toyota Corolla. Of course, if Lexus doesn't offer something comparable to the Corolla, and that's all you want and need, then you go with Toyota -- but don't expect Lexus-class service at the dealership. They're different.

but if they're not even giving us 10% of the transparency or access that Apple gives us, even when dealing with consumer products.

And who else does? Panasonic's the most transparent of the video companies, the most accessible. Nobody else comes within a million miles of them. So compare your experience against peers (other consumer electronics companies), not a totally different industry (a computer manufacturer or a broadcast equipment manufacturer).

 

[Ben_B]

The GH1 is built and sold through Panasonic Consumer. It's not about "classifying" it as consumer, it's that the consumer division built and sold it. Broadcast is a different company.

If I substitute a couple of words in your quote, I think the distinction can be made a lot more clearly:


Same basic thing. Panasonic Consumer is not Panasonic Broadcast, any more than Nikon is Panasonic Broadcast. Panasonic Broadcast has made the commitment to interact with us daily, entirely accessibly. Nikon and Canon and JVC and Sony don't do that, and neither does Panasonic Consumer.

Doesn't mean that none of those companies read the boards, because they all do. But they don't interact with us.


And who else does? Panasonic's the most transparent of the video companies, the most accessible. Nobody else comes within a million miles of them. So compare your experience against peers (other consumer electronics companies), not a totally different industry (a computer manufacturer or a broadcast equipment manufacturer).

Yeah I realize they're different companies, but they're all under the Panasonic umbrella and someone at a higher level at Panasonic should care more about overall brand consistency and reputation....we know they're different companies but if my Panasonic microwave burns down my house I'm gonna be less likely to buy a Panasonic TV set...just saying.

As for the Apple comparison I think it's a fair one. It shows what is possible in customer service. Yes Panasonic broadcast has been more forthcoming than others in the same industry, and Panasonic consumer electronics haven't been more or less forthcoming than anyone else in their industry...but that doesn't change the fact that the quality of the customer service in both industries is, on the whole, total shi* compared to customer service in other industries...just because it's better than (in the case of broadcast) or no worse than (in the case of consumer) doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

I might be able to get Jan (or someone else from marketing [note, marketing, not an engineer..not that there's anything wrong with that, I love product managers]) to respond to a post on DVXuser that I made, and Barry Green might be able to get an engineer from Panasonic on the phone...hell maybe I could get one of the original developer engineers on the phone if I was having trouble with an HPX-3700...but I can't get past the call center peons (no offense intended they're very hardworking people they just aren't much help through no fault of their own) if my GH1 isn't behaving the way I'd like it to. But I, Ben, or Barry (well you're a PC guy right), or my friend Doug, or my grandma could get an engineer from Apple on the phone if we ask the right questions.

The fact that there exists, I don't care what industry its in, customer service where a consumer can talk directly to the engineer that designed the part of the product that is malfunctioning, or even not malfunctioning, by making a freaking phone call, should serve as an example of what is possible in customer service...and it's an example that all companies, regardless of industry, should strive to emulate...even if they only get to 10%.

 

[noirist]

It seems like this thread is being interpreted as fanboy versus basher, which isn't a fair or accurate description of me or (I hope) most of us. I am very happy with my GH1 in most ways but I feel cheated in one respect.... The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution. And in real life filming, it's clear that the GH1 isn't giving 1080p24. Here's a simple test... Start filming a person in 1080p close by and have them slowly walk backwards away from the camera. When they're about 15 feet away their image will suffer a marked degradation in resolution which would not happen if the camera was providing 1080p. So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper? Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.

 

[Ben_B]

It seems like this thread is being interpreted as fanboy versus basher, which isn't a fair or accurate description of me or (I hope) most of us. I am very happy with my GH1 in most ways but I feel cheated in one respect.... The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution. And in real life filming, it's clear that the GH1 isn't giving 1080p24. Here's a simple test... Start filming a person in 1080p close by and have them slowly walk backwards away from the camera. When they're about 15 feet away their image will suffer a marked degradation in resolution which would not happen if the camera was providing 1080p. So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper? Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.

That might be hardware so it might not work! Same with composite out while recording (HDMI out certainly is) or even 24pn (I've heard the sensor is native 60 which might be why 1080p uses a pulldown...) you never know...and that sucks

 

[John Caballero]

Anybody attend the Photoplus expo in NYC?
I'm gonna try to stop by on saturday. Will hit up the Panasonic booth and ask what's going on. Hopefully, they have something to say.

I'll be going tomorrow. Panasonic is not in the exhibitors list.

 

[Ben_B]

I'll be going tomorrow. Panasonic is not in the exhibitors list.

Of course not, everyone at the company is too busy working on our GH1 firmware to attend!

 

[Barry_Green]

Yeah I realize they're different companies, but they're all under the Panasonic umbrella and someone at a higher level at Panasonic should care more about overall brand consistency and reputation....

What are they doing wrong? Where is the problem?

Anyway, Lexus and Toyota and Scion are all under the same umbrella, but I'm pretty safe in saying you'll get a different ownership experience for each. That's what paying more does for you.

You cannot expect to buy the bargain-basement model and get treated like you bought the top dog. That's just irrational.

As for the Apple comparison I think it's a fair one. It shows what is possible in customer service.

And that's the kind of service you'll get from Panasonic Broadcast. Now, go try to get an iPhone engineer on the phone and see how that turns out.

hell maybe I could get one of the original developer engineers on the phone if I was having trouble with an HPX-3700...

Yes, you could.

but I can't get past the call center peons (no offense intended they're very hardworking people they just aren't much help through no fault of their own) if my GH1 isn't behaving the way I'd like it to.

Correct. But you're talking about a commoditized $1500 piece of electronics, vs. a $40,000 specialized industry item.

And now it becomes a little more clear why broadcast stuff costs more, right?

You could get a Sales Support Engineer to fly out to your site and integrate your HPX3700 and HPM110 and all that into your facility. Guess where the budget for that comes from? Yep, the fact that you paid more for the product.

That isn't gonna happen if you go buying a TM300, and it's profoundly unrealistic to expect the service operations to work the same. Where does the budget for that come from?

But I, Ben, or Barry (well you're a PC guy right), or my friend Doug, or my grandma could get an engineer from Apple on the phone if we ask the right questions.

For something like a server? Yes. For an iPod Nano? I doubt it.

The fact that there exists, I don't care what industry its in, customer service where a consumer can talk directly to the engineer that designed the part of the product that is malfunctioning, or even not malfunctioning, by making a freaking phone call, should serve as an example of what is possible in customer service...

And if you're dealing with something like a server, that's possible. Or a broadcast product that costs $40,000.

But in those cases, you're talking about 1,000 or 5,000 units sold, and so the number of customers who might actually call is maybe 2%, so you'll deal with maybe 20 calls a month. So you build in the budget some room to afford that support.

Versus a GH1, which might sell 50,000 units a month, and the percentage of customers who might call will overwhelm the little 15% (or whatever it is) margin on the product.

If you want world class customer support, you can have it. If you want the lowest possible price, you can have that. But you cannot have both.

Try shopping at wal-mart, and shopping at Neiman Marcus. You'll find that the customer support is a little different at those two stores (and, coincidentally, so are the prices).

Still, I have no idea what this has to do with the original topic?

 

[Barry_Green]

The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution.

Neither does any other camera, including an HPX3700. The specs promise imaging that's recorded in 1080/24p, and that's what you get. You cannot ever have 1920x1080 discretely perfectly resolvable lines of detail out of any of these cameras.

If you're mad about the GH1 not giving that level of sharpness, pity the poor 5D and 7D users who are getting even lower res. But they're not complaining about it.

And in fact, NO DSLR is actually giving you high-definition footage anyway. None of 'em do. They're all, at best, medium-def with a whole lot of aliasing thrown in on top to make it look as if they're high def.

And that's the truth.

So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper?

All the same folks would. Where else are you gonna go? The 7D and 5D and even the new 1D Mark IV all do the same thing. And they all cost more, from double to 7x as much. You'll get better sensitivity and noise performance and maybe some dynamic range improvements as you go up that ladder, but you're not going to get any more actual resolved detail.

Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.

Nope, it'll have no effect whatsoever. The 7D has about 3x the bitrate of the GH1, and lower overall resolution. Fewer compression artifacts, yes -- but no additional resolution*. And far worse moire and color contamination.

It is due to the way the DSLRs work. Read the aliasing article and you'll see -- if it's a DSLR that also takes stills, it's gonna have these same issues.

You cannot, and will not, ever, get something for nothing. If you want true HD performance and shallow DOF, but all you're willing to pay is $1500, guess what -- there's gonna be some compromises. There's a reason that an HPX3700 costs $40,000...



*but the higher bitrate can help prevent the degradation of the resolution that you do have. We all want a higher bitrate in the GH1 because of its propensity to give up its resolved detail when the codec is under stress.

 

[Nitsuj]

Once again you nailed it Barry.

 

[John Caballero]

Barry Green knows what he is talking about. It is amazing how the complainers are complaining about a $1500 camera that delivers a superb image for its price if you really know what you are doing. Especially at 1080p. Just amazing.

 

[Ben_B]

Barry Green knows what he is talking about. It is amazing how the complainers are complaining about a $1500 camera that delivers a superb image for its price if you really know what you are doing. Especially at 1080p. Just amazing.

I love the camera, of all the cameras I've ever used it's my favorite...and that includes the entire "low end" line from Panny broadcast D/H VX/MC/PX-100/200/200a/150/170/300/500, whatever.

 

[bumkicho]

A year ago I was shooting with hv20+twoneil static adapter. A year ago or many months ago I was amazed as I watched 5D videos on vimeo and thought if I could only. Now? Everyday I am amazed that I have my GH1 and people compare it to 5D. Is this real? Was I able to buy, with my budget, a camera that could be compared to 5D? Wow. Just Wow.

Is Panasonic listening? Didn't GH1 come out because Panasonic listened in the first place?

 

[Nitsuj]

I'm not sure I understand why people think they will be able to shoot a Kubrick-like masterpiece from their $1500 camera without any prior experience or solid works. It's been taken out of context for what it is I think. You certainly can shoot a beautiful film with this I think, but I have a feeling that people are expecting a look to come out of this camera that makes them an instant hit over night. I bet you anything that if Roger Deakins got a GH1 he would blow the minds of people here who think it is faulty. Then they would yell it is their unit that is defective because they couldn't achieve the same look. It's not so much the hardware but the craft of cinematography and of course the direction that leads to memorable images in a film. People want a magical camera that makes their images in their heads appear before them on the screen. The camera is just a peephole into the magic of filmmaking as a whole. The magic has little to do with the actual camera itself.

 

[JerryB]

I understand what you are saying about talent over gear (this is no new concept). No one can open the box without any experience and produce Christopher Doyle images. I just don't understand some peoples stance. I think the overall consensus is that this camera is amazing for the price (why does this keep having to be repeated), but there are some features that hopefully could be added (much like canon did) that would make everyone's life a little easier. A firmware update with native 24p will not produce a better cinematographer, but it will produce a simpler work flow and possibly smoother 24p image.

If all the 5D Mark II buyers sat down and said, "this is the best we're gonna get and that's final", then there would be no manual controls or future native 24p. I don't understand why everyone won't rally together in supporting the possibility of more features. I don't think anyone would be making such a fuss over firmware updates for this camera if there wasn't a history of a similar camera getting them through consumer feedback (5d). The consumers had to RALLY TOGETHER to get them.

I also don't understand the "price" theory. The Mark II runs for $3500 new with the lens. With the new firmware update for 24p it seems impossible to find something comparable for that price. When you factor that the GH1 has a smaller sensor, lower bit rate, 4:2:0 color space and slower stock lens, I think it's somewhat reasonable at $1500 to have 24p native.

If someone doesn't support this, there's no need to knock the attempt. But I'm sure everyone will be in line to download a firmware update that offers any of the features we all are asking for, if they happen to get released. Correct?

I have not stopped shooting with the camera because there has not been a firmware update. I'm actually loving the camera more and more each day (the more primes i get) and only spending a very small amount of my time dreaming about new firmware for the camera.

 

[shzr]

Jerry B

Thank you for a fair minded response.

 

[thisisapocalypse]

jerry b

thank you for a fair minded response.

+1

 

[The GEO]

+1

+2

 

[TimurCivan]

My imagination has superior dynamic range to yours.

So awesome..... i love this quote.