C500: Canon C500 Upgrade

ollywood88

ollywood88

Well-known member
Hi Folks,

I am looking into upgrading my C500, I love this camera but I am thinking after NAB - not holding out of upgrading to a c300 MKII

Has anyone gone this route, I have been vocal about trying to get the 12 bit 4444 60fps in 2k like the C500 does (I will miss this). But THE Clog2,3 Are great and the auto focus would be helpful. I did speak to Canon about the DPAF in the C500 As the C300 MK1 has it.

I wanted to see what people thought and to see if anyone has done this upgrade path.

Thank you
 
I’ve had the c300 II for some time and sold it for the C200. If I were you I would consider it. It’s better in Newark every way for me and the c300 II has become a b cam option for me.
 
Thank you for your reply. Are you mainly using 4k. Mine would be for that lovely 2k 60fps. C200 lower codecs are very limited.

I don't see NAB bringing much probs a c700 update. sigh
 
ollywood88 said:
Thank you for your reply. Are you mainly using 4k. Mine would be for that lovely 2k 60fps. C200 lower codecs are very limited.

I don't see NAB bringing much probs a c700 update. sigh
Click to expand...

I'm using 4k exclusively and the RAW 4k storage requirements are ridiculous but worth it. I'm looking to buy a c500 kit for a B Cam though. NAB will probably be nothing. I wish c700 would drop to 14k. I'd buy it.
 
ollywood88 said:
I wanted to see what people thought and to see if anyone has done this upgrade path.
Click to expand...

I did this exact upgrade path (technically still trying to sell my C500....) and I will say that from a technical & ergonomic perspective it has been a fantastic upgrade, but workflow wise it's very weak in four situations worth considering:

1. Long Interviews
2. Multi-cam shoots
3. Certain documentary work (or any other situation in which you need to sync with external sound in post).
4. Certain PC post-production workflows

Long Interviews: If you want to shoot in raw you can only record in 4K to one CFAST card (no dual slot recording). At the time of this post there's only one reasonably priced large card on the market - 512GB which will give you just a shade over an hour of continuous recording. Also, since there's no dual slot recording (only recording a low-res proxy at the same time) all of your eggs are in one basket, which always makes me nervous when the stakes are high.

Multicam Shoots: There is no way to sync/jam time code on the C200. Tentacle Sync is a great option and in my one time of using it, seems to work great, BUT that means you need to get one for every camera AND the audio source AND have their software installed (Mac only) in order to sync everything up in post.

Certain Documentary Work: Similar to the multicam scenario, if you have a location sound person recording seperately (or more streams than you have inputs on the camera) and you need to sync in post, you'll need to do the same thing as the multi-cam situation in post. Again, no way to traditionally sync timecode between sound recorder and camera.

Certain PC Post-Production Workflows: I just did a documentary shoot (for a new client of course.....) where I had to dump cards to a drive and hand over at the end of the day because the producer was going straight to the airport. It was a multi-cam doc shoot w/ external sound (so perfect storm). Well his editor is on a PC which means no Final Cut (which has native canon raw support), no way to transcode to prores via Cinema Raw Development to edit in Premiere (because he's on a PC), and no way to sync the timecode generated from Tentacle Sync (currently a Mac only software). If I could have done all of that for him and handed over a hard drive the next day, those headaches my C200 generated could have been avoided, but it wasn't possible this time.

That all being said, if you're self-producing and/or have the time & permission to handle the first stage of data management it's a great system, but at the time of this post the current level of support for Canon Raw & the combo of no timecode sync can cause headaches if you're shooting for someone else and then handing over cards and in my experience other producers don't want to deal with additional headaches if there's another option.
 
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ollywood88 said:
Hi Folks,

I am looking into upgrading my C500, I love this camera but I am thinking after NAB - not holding out of upgrading to a c300 MKII

Has anyone gone this route, I have been vocal about trying to get the 12 bit 4444 60fps in 2k like the C500 does (I will miss this). But THE Clog2,3 Are great and the auto focus would be helpful. I did speak to Canon about the DPAF in the C500 As the C300 MK1 has it.

I wanted to see what people thought and to see if anyone has done this upgrade path.

Thank you
Click to expand...

I didn't have a C500 before but I work in a major city as an owner/operator who uses the C300MKII for corporate video. The awesome thing about it is how useable it is as a production tool. I have so many great run-n-gun features if I am shooting solo (DPAF, dual slot relay recording, etc.), but the professional connections and codecs mean that I can easily integrate with virtually any company's workflow, whether they need TimeCode sync, or whatever.

The main cons of the camera are no RAW (not a huge dealbreaker for my work, but it would be fun to have), no 4K 60p (again, I've never had a client think my 2K 60p looked bad when intercut with material shot in 4K, but it would be fun to have), and by far, the most annoying thing is not having XLR ports built into the camera (I want to throw the Canon display and audio module out the window because it makes the camera so much bulkier than it has to be since I use a SmallHD monitor as my primary display).

Hope this helps!
 
mizzar said:
I didn't have a C500 before but I work in a major city as an owner/operator who uses the C300MKII for corporate video. The awesome thing about it is how useable it is as a production tool. I have so many great run-n-gun features if I am shooting solo (DPAF, dual slot relay recording, etc.), but the professional connections and codecs mean that I can easily integrate with virtually any company's workflow, whether they need TimeCode sync, or whatever.

The main cons of the camera are no RAW (not a huge dealbreaker for my work, but it would be fun to have), no 4K 60p (again, I've never had a client think my 2K 60p looked bad when intercut with material shot in 4K, but it would be fun to have), and by far, the most annoying thing is not having XLR ports built into the camera (I want to throw the Canon display and audio module out the window because it makes the camera so much bulkier than it has to be since I use a SmallHD monitor as my primary display).

Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

There is a fix to the clamshell video/audio module. You can always buy the new C200 touch screen and the external audio module.
 
chris f said:
I did this exact upgrade path (technically still trying to sell my C500....) and I will say that from a technical & ergonomic perspective it has been a fantastic upgrade, but workflow wise it's very weak in four situations worth considering:

1. Long Interviews
2. Multi-cam shoots
3. Certain documentary work (or any other situation in which you need to sync with external sound in post).
4. Certain PC post-production workflows

Long Interviews: If you want to shoot in raw you can only record in 4K to one CFAST card (no dual slot recording). At the time of this post there's only one reasonably priced large card on the market - 512GB which will give you just a shade over an hour of continuous recording. Also, since there's no dual slot recording (only recording a low-res proxy at the same time) all of your eggs are in one basket, which always makes me nervous when the stakes are high.
Click to expand...

Like everyone else, I've gotten used to being able to roll for extended periods of time(WAY too long without breaks sometimes), because of large memory cards and cameras with multiple card slots that will automatically switch(and I don't want to take a step backwards), BUT it wasn't that long ago that we were shooting tape and were often limited to only 30 minutes per, and you had to stop and change tapes. You can make the argument that stopping can break the flow of an interview, especially if it's at an inopportune time, like in the middle of a great story or recalling an emotional event, but I think it helps on long interviews, too, by giving the subject(and crew) a few minutes to stop, breath and relax.
 
Thanks guys.

I will miss the 12 bit 4444 60fps from the c500. The auto focus and the CLOG 2 and 3 are worth it.

Is there much different in the 10 bit vs the 12 bit?
 
madeprime said:
I’ve had the c300 II for some time and sold it for the C200. If I were you I would consider it. It’s better in Newark every way for me and the c300 II has become a b cam option for me.
Click to expand...

Did you use the Production profile (Alexa profile) on the C300 ii?
Does the c200 have it?
 
ollywood88 said:
Thanks guys.

I will miss the 12 bit 4444 60fps from the c500. The auto focus and the CLOG 2 and 3 are worth it.

Is there much different in the 10 bit vs the 12 bit?
Click to expand...

Not sure if this answers your question but I’ve done tests comparing the 4K 422 10-bit vs the 2K 444 12-bit on the C300 Mark II and the 4K 422 10-bit looks better for “normal” footage (I haven’t tested the difference in green screen performance).
 
puredrifting said:
C200 conversation heard on set yesterday
Old guy: "It doesn't have time code"
Millenial: "What's time code?"
Click to expand...

lol, that's awesome. I still have never used it myself after almost only 10 years of doing this, but I understand the value of it.
 
Oliver,

I'm in the same boat as you. I have a C500/Odyssey, but it's too big and cumbersome for travelling, as I learned the hard way in a long road trip up the West Coast last summer (with the intention of shooting stock footage and some doc material).

At this point, I'm leaning more towards the EVA1 for an upgrade, especially if it implements 12 bit RAW (which Odyssey can record in ProRes) and has the internal 10 bit All-I codec. I like the EVA1 image more than the C200, except for the noise in low light.

Ultimately, I don't see the C200/C300II as an upgrade on the C500. It's more like a "sidegrade."

Whatever you do, don't buy anything yet. The $10-20K market is ripe for both Canon and Sony, where the old F5 currently sits. I'm sure both Canon and Sony will want to fill that space, rather than leaving it to Varicam LT and RED Scarlet-W.

The C300II will surely be replaced in the next year or two, since it has already been discounted significantly and lacks 4K60P.
 
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NorBro said:
lol, that's awesome. I still have never used it myself after almost only 10 years of doing this, but I understand the value of it.
Click to expand...

I rarely use it but recently directed and edited a two camera corporate shoot with two C300 MKIs for a healthcare company and I have to say, as an editor, it was nice having duplicate time code. It's not hard to sync stuff these days but it's one less thing you have to worry about when deadlines in post are tight. Definitely not a deal breaker for me, I don't do too many multi-camera shoots and when I do, it is often with a big fancy A camera and then two or three Go Pros or mirrorless on gimbal or other B or C camera that can't sync timecode so not that big of a deal. I recently did a shoot with my C200 as A camera and my iPhone as a B camera angle to get a really wide shot and it worked out fine just syncing the two by ear but it was literally for just one shot. I hate shooting events and live presentiations or concerts seems to be where TC i/o is a big factor.
 
This is some of the best footage I've seen from the C200:


The above clip is a nice demonstration of the camera's ability to deal with mixed lighting, colors. and DR. It would be hard to achieve this look with the more limited DR on the C500. In that sense, it definitely is an upgrade and is much more portable for 4K.

But it's the same old Canon withholding important features on lower cameras (C200) to protect higher ones (C300II) that would otherwise be obsolete due to the end of their cycle.
 
In a three camera interview the mixer cried out at the last minute because of a mixup. One C300, One 1dxII and one Go Pro. No time code as I didnt have my Sound Devices 10T or 702T. Just swtiched on the C300 and 1DXII and then switched on the Go Pro. The Go Pro makes a loud beep. That perfectly helps in syncing the C300 and 1DXII. I only needed a couple of shots from GoPro, so synced it by eye. If you don't have mixer a cheap loud buzzer should be fine. :) But can't do it with paying clients. :)

puredrifting said:
I rarely use it but recently directed and edited a two camera corporate shoot with two C300 MKIs for a healthcare company and I have to say, as an editor, it was nice having duplicate time code. It's not hard to sync stuff these days but it's one less thing you have to worry about when deadlines in post are tight. Definitely not a deal breaker for me, I don't do too many multi-camera shoots and when I do, it is often with a big fancy A camera and then two or three Go Pros or mirrorless on gimbal or other B or C camera that can't sync timecode so not that big of a deal. I recently did a shoot with my C200 as A camera and my iPhone as a B camera angle to get a really wide shot and it worked out fine just syncing the two by ear but it was literally for just one shot. I hate shooting events and live presentiations or concerts seems to be where TC i/o is a big factor.
Click to expand...
 
I owned a C500 for about 3 years and sold it for a C200. It’s 100% an upgrade. Doing everything internal and not having the large setup was one of the best upgrades you could get. Internal raw 4K 60p, C-log 2/3 and DPAF, huge upgrades.

Just me personally but I’d rather two C200s vs a £15-£20k C300 mark iii

Kinok said:
Oliver,

I'm in the same boat as you. I have a C500/Odyssey, but it's too big and cumbersome for travelling, as I learned the hard way in a long road trip up the West Coast last summer (with the intention of shooting stock footage and some doc material).

At this point, I'm leaning more towards the EVA1 for an upgrade, especially if it implements 12 bit RAW (which Odyssey can record in ProRes) and has the internal 10 bit All-I codec. I like the EVA1 image more than the C200, except for the noise in low light.

Ultimately, I don't see the C200/C300II as an upgrade on the C500. It's more like a "sidegrade."

Whatever you do, don't buy anything yet. The $10-20K market is ripe for both Canon and Sony, where the old F5 currently sits. I'm sure both Canon and Sony will want to fill that space, rather than leaving it to Varicam LT and RED Scarlet-W.

The C300II will surely be replaced in the next year or two, since it has already been discounted significantly and lacks 4K60P.
Click to expand...
 
chris f said:
Multicam Shoots: There is no way to sync/jam time code on the C200. Tentacle Sync is a great option and in my one time of using it, seems to work great, BUT that means you need to get one for every camera AND the audio source AND have their software installed (Mac only) in order to sync everything up in post.
Click to expand...


This is just normal procedure with timecode boxes, as *ALL* cameras should always have a timecode box attached to them at all times.

And as for having one on your recorder.... errr... why? Any professional recorder shouldn't need it.
 
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