Canon 7D - Meet the HMC40 in the Sreets, Where it Counts!!! Unless your scared!

Kholi said:
It's because of the technically information people like Barry_Green offer that we get this kind of gear in the first place.

-
Click to expand...


Multinational companies don't make decisions based on what Barry Green thinks. No disrespect to Barry Green, but let's keep things in perspective. This is an internet discussion board, not Anderson Consulting.

If you, Barry, or anyone else took offense to comments I made, I apologize.
 
Lucian said:
Multinational companies don't make decisions based on what Barry Green thinks. No disrespect to Barry Green, but let's keep things in perspective. This is an internet discussion board, not Anderson Consulting.

If you, Barry, or anyone else took offense to comments I made, I apologize.
Click to expand...


Originally Posted by Kholi
It's because of the technically information people like Barry_Green offer that we get this kind of gear in the first place.

---
No offense taken. But, I will correct you so that we're on the same internet forum page:

This being an internet forum based around text means you have plenty of time to read what I type before you respond. I set in bold, italics and furthermore underlined the predicate in my statement so that you won't be mistaken, again.

Furthermore, please inquire to anyone that had gripes about the HVX200 and how those changed with the HPX170, or WHY they changed; since no one listens to internet forums.
 
Kholi said:
Originally Posted by Kholi
It's because of the technically information people like Barry_Green offer that we get this kind of gear in the first place.

---
No offense taken. But, I will correct you so that we're on the same internet forum page:

This being an internet forum based around text means you have plenty of time to read what I type before you respond. I set in bold, italics and furthermore underlined the predicate in my statement so that you won't be mistaken, again.

Furthermore, please inquire to anyone that had gripes about the HVX200 and how those changed with the HPX170, or WHY they changed; since no one listens to internet forums.
Click to expand...

So what you mean is people who are similar to Barry Green but not necessarily Barry Green himself, are the reason we have new gear like the 7d?
 
Johnny Cola said:
LOL
Aliased bunnies look like road kill! DO NOT USE A 7D to shoot bunnies!
Click to expand...

Just typical, you dvx peepers are always using the wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot bunnies you need a .223 steyr scout with a zeiss scope. I think you'll find it resolves really well.
 
Eddy Robinson said:
Well, I didn't mean to overstate things! What I'm getting at is that wide shots where you'd want deep focus (eg establishing shots) are the kind where the limitations of these cameras are more apparent. .....
Click to expand...
Ok I got it. One thing I agree with is the mushiness on foliage sometimes. Not just with this cam but it seems with a lot of AVCHD cams. The thing is it's not consistent...sometimes you get some very sharp/crisp green leaves and grass and other times the footage makes you think you have Vaseline covering your pupils. I just don't get it.
 
My ratio of grammatical errors on an iPhone has nothing to do with this.

Sent from my iPhone... While sitting under a blow dryer.
 
Buck Forester said:
Your spelling is fine. I think it's the iPhone text compression algorithms.
Click to expand...

It's auto-correction and earlier talking on another phone to arrange two 7D rentals and consulting while typing that message on a tiny phone display.

Sent from my iPhone... This dryer is really hot.
 
Buck Forester said:
So, it's because of the technically information people like Barry?

I like Barry. It has nothing to do with technically information.
Click to expand...

I think he means other Barrys, like Barry Purple and Barry Red. Those guys do in fact influence Canon product development. But not Barry Green, and probably not even Barry White.
 
Lucian said:
I think he means other Barrys, like Barry Purple and Barry Red. Those guys do in fact influence Canon product development. But not Barry Green, and probably not even Barry White.
Click to expand...

I regret to inform you that I actually have no idea who you are and what you may have posted prior to quoting my post. I assume, now having the time to really pay attention to your text, that you've been active in the fight to hail the 7D as the second coming and you had something to say against Barry's tests?

Please, continue the good fight, but without me in it. I don't hunt trolls for a living, I shoot.

<3 you and Buck. You make my pants happy.

Sent from my iPhone... My ears are burnif and it's not from you guys talking about mr on PMs. This hair dryer is scorching hot.
 
Ian-T said:
Ok I got it. One thing I agree with is the mushiness on foliage sometimes. Not just with this cam but it seems with a lot of AVCHD cams. The thing is it's not consistent...sometimes you get some very sharp/crisp green leaves and grass and other times the footage makes you think you have Vaseline covering your pupils. I just don't get it.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I think it's the nature of low-bitrate AVC. I was really surprised to see the HMC40 doing the same thing as the GH1 does, mushing the greens, and the 7D does it too.

In HDV, everything was dictated around 8x8 blocks, so when the compression started to choke, everything got nasty blocky. With h.264, the block size is variable, as small as 2x2 or as big as 16x16. The idea is that when things start to go south, the blocks will be smaller and smoother. So perhaps that's what we're seeing here, is that the shot might cause HDV to go blocky, but in the AVC/h.264 cams it goes mushy. If that's the case, then I would suspect that it looks a LOT better in motion than the 8-bit blocks would!

And also, this is a LOT of detail, there's billions of leaves and grass blades in there, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the codec is overloaded in a shot like this.
 
Barry_Green said:
In HDV, everything was dictated around 8x8 blocks, so when the compression started to choke, everything got nasty blocky. With h.264, the block size is variable, as small as 2x2 or as big as 16x16. The idea is that when things start to go south, the blocks will be smaller and smoother. So perhaps that's what we're seeing here, is that the shot might cause HDV to go blocky, but in the AVC/h.264 cams it goes mushy. If that's the case, then I would suspect that it looks a LOT better in motion than the 8-bit blocks would!
Click to expand...

I wonder if there is a way to dictate that the h.264 codec in the 7d only use the smallest possible block size. Personally, I like high-speed film-esque noise, but I despise macroblocking. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine that limiting the size of the compression macroblocks would help maintain a look that would be at worst more noisy, but less macroblock-y, than not limiting, as much, the possible macroblock sizes.

I'd be curious to see an h.264 implementation where macroblocking is limited to 1x1 blocks. What would that be like?

Maybe control over this would only be possible if Canon were to offer it as an added option in a firmware update, but, hopefully, Magic Lantern, in the future, could control this and other aspects of the h.264 implementation.
 
PaulM said:
I'd be curious to see an h.264 implementation where macroblocking is limited to 1x1 blocks. What would that be like?
Click to expand...
1x1 "blocks" (i.e. single pixels) wouldn't be called "macroblocks," would they?

Maybe control over this would only be possible if Canon were to offer it as an added option in a firmware update, but, hopefully, Magic Lantern, in the future, could control this and other aspects of the h.264 implementation.
Click to expand...
The codec is probably a hardware codec that isn't controlled by the same firmware. I'm also not aware of any software H.264 codec that allows you to have that sort of control. It would seem to defeat the purpose of H.264 encoding if you're only going to work with single pixels instead of macroblocks.
 
Lucian said:
So what you mean is people who are similar to Barry Green but not necessarily Barry Green himself, are the reason we have new gear like the 7d?
Click to expand...

well I have no way of knowing this for sure but it does seem like the 7d seems to be an answer to a lot of the complaints people had with the GH1 and the 5d. It seems to be a direct competitor to the gh1 and improved on the true 24p, live HDMI out and higher bitrate people were asking for. it did seem like canon responded to user demand with the manual control firmware update for the 5d at least. who knows what feedback they're listening to but it does seem like people pointing out these cameras' limitations seems to be having some effect at least (maybe not from here but from somewhere).
 
killacam said:
well I have no way of knowing this for sure but it does seem like the 7d seems to be an answer to a lot of the complaints people had with the GH1 and the 5d. It seems to be a direct competitor to the gh1 and improved on the true 24p, live HDMI out and higher bitrate people were asking for. it did seem like canon responded to user demand with the manual control firmware update for the 5d at least. who knows what feedback they're listening to but it does seem like people pointing out these cameras' limitations seems to be having some effect at least (maybe not from here but from somewhere).
Click to expand...

ABSLOLUTELY! The squeaky wheels get the grease... and I have much love for the squeaky wheels, they help make my life better!

My problem has been the "sky is falling" response to a test that will affect very little of the way most people shoot with these cameras. And if you are buying a video DSLR to do extreme wides and deep focus, you should really consider going a different route. But the look that a majority of us have been dying for just landed in our laps for less then the price of a 35mm adapter.
And if you feel like waiting because you can't justify spending $1700 on a work in progress, I understand but I have work in progress and I have allready have had to wait FAR TOO LONG FOR THIS DAY! Out of the 3 viable options available right now, in this class, this makes the most sense for what I need. YES THIS CAMERA HAS IT'S ISSUES AND LIMITATIONS BUT IT EMPOWERS ME A shi* LOAD MORE THAN IT LIMITS ME!!!!!! Remember that! That maybe the only important thing I say on these forums, ever!

AND I am not a fanboy, I am brand agnostic. I don't care who makes the products that improve the quality of my life or work. Guess what, I plan on owning at least 2 GH1s or it's successor depending on what's available when I'm ready to buy.

AND I don't care what YOU use, I don't care if you take a Xerox machine into an open field, expose it to the sky, make a few thousand copies and call it a timelapse. If that's what makes you happy, I am genuinly happy for you :)
 
Last edited:
Johnny Cola said:
AND I don't care what YOU use, I don't care if you take a Xerox machine into an open field, expose it to the sky, make a few thousand copies and call it a timelapse. If that's what makes you happy, I am genuinly happy for you :)
Click to expand...

Actually that might not be a bad idea, lol.

But all kidding aside, I am 100% in agreement with you JC. All of this bickering back 'n' forth about this camera's sharper than that, and the mids' of this one licks the butthole of that one is mute.

Go out and shoot some product, with whatever you have. I mean seriously, earlier on in my career in art, I was told by a wise man that You can teach a creative person technical bable but you cant teach a techie how to be creative. And thats what this seems to have come to.

All about the tech, but no actual real life artistic application to show it on. A still here, and frame grab there, but what is that proving. NOTHING. Only something we already knew, that technology always advances faster than its produced.

Of course the 7D has its issues, so does the Red 1, so does the GH1, so does the EX3, so does the Arri, hell so do 35mm cams. You find me one piece of tech. that doesn't have a shortfalling or two, and I'll show u an Alien artifact.

You guys really could stop with this back and forth.

Barry, very much appreciated of your labor, and judging by your post count, and other members of the community's respect towards you , you are a stand up guy. But what has these tests shown us that we didn't already know.

I'm just curious.

And to conclude, in my first DVXuser rant, The Scarlet and Epic will have issues you guys won't like either, even if it gives you 4K, you'll be like hell RED could've pushed out 5K much easier if they only tried. they just want us to but the new rig when it comes out. WTF. Chill man, either buy it, and use it, or don't, PERIOD.

Anyway johnny Cola you've been getting me fired up lately with your posts. and I will follow along in your footsteps, You guys will, I'm sure continue to bicker, while i go out and shoot, around these limitations.

Thats it I'm done.


"MOVE ALONG FOLKS NOTHING MORE TO SEE HERE"
 
(The following is not a response to JC's postings…)

Um, just out of curiosity…

Why can't one do both? Why can't we view Barry's tests, discuss how they were done and what they mean, AND THEN go out and shoot? Just because people get their knickers in a twist over stuff like this doesn't mean you have to.

And nothing is forcing anyone to read any thread labeled "Canon 7D - Meet the…" whatever. If it doesn't interest you, move along. But it does interest some, maybe even many, which means these tests do have value.

You may know what the limitations of these cameras are, but some certainly do not, and Barry's or anyone else's tests might help keep someone from finding themselves in a completely avoidable situation with a camera.

And keep in mind that, while people do post their work here, it is largely a forum about the technical side of making these cameras do what we want them to do, and how to support our "creative" visions with lighting, sound, acting and all the other elements that make good film.

I'm not a "head-in-the-sand" kind of guy. But I also don't tie my personal happiness and well-being into how well my cameras shoot res charts. After all, I can't remember the last time I had to interview a res chart.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top