Canon 7D for short films. Trying to decide.

C

cross-genre

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My dilemma as what seems to be others is whether or not the 7D would be more suitable for what I'm hoping to accomplish. I've read countless hours of the pros and cons and have narrowed my decision between the HVX and 7D. I figure with the cost of the 7D, lenses and Beachtek XLR adapter, both cameras would be about the same in cost.

The camera would be used mainly for short narrative films. I love the use of shallow depth of field when the scene calls for it and find a crystal clear deep-focus annoying, even for wider establishing shots. I also want to familiarize myself with different lenses. Without a 35mm adapter for the HVX, I just don't feel it would give me the aesthetic I'm hoping for. But, I'm very concerned with the 7d rolling shutter and aliasing problems. I do plan on entering film festivals, so a film blow-up might be necessary.

Hoping to get comments from those that have or will make shorts with the 7d and more specifically, anyone that has seen their work blown up for screenings and festivals. Did you regret the decision? If you could go back, would you choose an HVX or similar instead? Was the sound from an XLR adapter not what you had hoped? Thanks guys!
 
I also am using mine for narratives.

If you're looking for shallow depth of field as a primary requirement, I'd say the HVX is NOT an option without a DOF adapter and rails, no?

For audio, I'd say forget the Beachtech and go for a Zoom H4N. Audio recorded with the 7D has Auto-Gain-Correction applied regardless of what adapters you put in between it and the mic so it's for the most part useless for final edit, though it's still useful for dual-system syncing.

The variable frame rate in the HVX is a deal maker/breaker, I think. If you have to have it, then the choice is clear, if you can live without it, then the 7D may still be valid. Also realize that you'll have to spend somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-1200 for decent support systems on the 7D, depending on what you're getting and what you already have.

Rolling shutter is not really a problem if you're conscious of how to avoid it. If you stay away from 24/Bourne cam style shaky-cam shooting and go with smooth, steady shots, you're pretty much okay. Just don't whip pan a shot with nothing but telephone poles in the background and the effect should be invisible to all but those who look for it. This brings us back to the idea of good stabilization on the 7D, of course.

And there's the rub with the 7D. You have to THINK about what you're doing in order to avoid its most glaring flaws. Putting actors in costumes that won't display obvious aliasing, not shooting on a set that would cause the same thing, not using a certain type of shots or camera moves under certain circumstances. But if you're aware and know what to do, it can give you pretty great results. All comes down to knowing what you want and what you're willing to put up with.
 
We just did this path with a 5D. I plan on buying a 7D based on the experience. An HVX bare won't get you in the same league in terms of look, and if you put a lens adapter on it, you've made it crazy expensive.

If you want to avoid rolling shutter issues, then shoot the camera with that in mind. It's not that difficult to do. The RED guys do it all the time.

And by the way, the footage looks lovely, projected.
 
As it happens, I've recently shot two short films, one with the HVX and the other with a 7D.

For narrative filmmaking, the 7D wins hands down for me. It's smaller. It's less expensive. It shoots better images. Better lens options. Bigger sensor and more DOF options. We were contemplating getting an HVX at one point to replace our DVX, but I'm SO glad we went with the 7D instead.

The sole advantage of the HVX, in my mind, is the codec. Something to keep in mind depending on what you want to do.

For sound, I agree with meauounji that you'll want a Zoom H4N. It's relatively inexpensive and you'll be glad you got it.
 
Beeblebrox said:
As it happens, I've recently shot two short films, one with the HVX and the other with a 7D.

For narrative filmmaking, the 7D wins hands down for me. It's smaller. It's less expensive. It shoots better images. Better lens options. Bigger sensor and more DOF options. We were contemplating getting an HVX at one point to replace our DVX, but I'm SO glad we went with the 7D instead.

The sole advantage of the HVX, in my mind, is the codec. Something to keep in mind depending on what you want to do.

For sound, I agree with meauounji that you'll want a Zoom H4N. It's relatively inexpensive and you'll be glad you got it.
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Respectfully disagree. I have both the HVX and 7D and the image from the HVX is most definitely better. The real problem is that it isn't as easy to achieve compositional effects like shallow DOF with the HVX as it is with the 7D. Advantages of the HVX include more framerates, built in ND filters (can cost quiet a penny to add to the 7D if you are using seveal lenses), form factor more conducive to planned out narrative shoots, better LCD, better lens control (both the manual zoom rocker and electronic ring right in front of it), much easier to control focus with the ring, built-in audio that works and sounds perfectly fine for 95% of the work out there AND you don't have to spend a lot of time re-syncing things in post, ability to shoot to tape if desired, more monitoring options (zebra readings, audio monitoring, etc), built-in image stabilization, no aliasing, no rolling shutter...

The list goes on. For half my work I use the 7D because of its advantages. But in terms of sheer number of advantages, it clearly goes to the HVX.

Then again, I'm looking to sell my HVX because I need the money. So I could be a little biased :nads:

Seriously though, I would give most every advantage to the HVX. I love my 7D, but I couldn't honestly say it's in the same league as the HVX other than DOF, higher light sensitivity and more mobility.
 
WonJohnSoup said:
Respectfully disagree. I have both the HVX and 7D and the image from the HVX is most definitely better. The real problem is that it isn't as easy to achieve compositional effects like shallow DOF with the HVX as it is with the 7D. Advantages of the HVX include more framerates, built in ND filters (can cost quiet a penny to add to the 7D if you are using seveal lenses), form factor more conducive to planned out narrative shoots, better LCD, better lens control (both the manual zoom rocker and electronic ring right in front of it), much easier to control focus with the ring, built-in audio that works and sounds perfectly fine for 95% of the work out there AND you don't have to spend a lot of time re-syncing things in post, ability to shoot to tape if desired, more monitoring options (zebra readings, audio monitoring, etc), built-in image stabilization, no aliasing, no rolling shutter...

The list goes on. For half my work I use the 7D because of its advantages. But in terms of sheer number of advantages, it clearly goes to the HVX.

Then again, I'm looking to sell my HVX because I need the money. So I could be a little biased :nads:

Seriously though, I would give most every advantage to the HVX. I love my 7D, but I couldn't honestly say it's in the same league as the HVX other than DOF, higher light sensitivity and more mobility.
Click to expand...

Major Golf Clap
 
WonJohnSoup said:
I have both the HVX and 7D and the image from the HVX is most definitely better.
Click to expand...

For my purposes, in both shooting and post, the 7D spanked the HVX. I just like the treatment of light, the selective focus, and the resolution. The drawback is the codec on the 7D, but I haven't run into those limitations just yet. I'm looking forward to really tearing the image apart, especially shooting some green screen stuff, and seeing what happens.

Not sure about the form factor being more conducive to planned out narrative shoots. The advantages of the HVX form factor are certainly more conducive to event photography, but not really narrative shoots, not if you have the planning you're talking about. Like getting external monitors, external sound recording and mixing, and a follow focus (all of which we had on both shoots), which makes the focus control, audio, and LCD kind of moot points.

But most of that is about preferences and preparation. I'm not saying the 7D is without compromises. It certainly is. But so is the HVX. And I'd personally rather live with the limitations of the 7D.
 
WonJohnSoup said:
other than DOF, higher light sensitivity and more mobility.
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I think you just sold me on the 7D.

These are the exact three things I'm looking for and as a not too often film maker I could probably get away with other limitations considering the general lack of production values I'd bring to a project anyway.
 
Sold my hvx to shoot my narrative work with the 7d and have never looked back and never will. This is the closest I've ever come to getting the look I want without using the light hod 35mm adapters. I will be cutting a trailer to my film within the week and will post so those on the fence can make a better informed decision.

The codec and transcoding can be a headache, but the price you pay for the images you get.
 
If all you're interested in doing is your own personal short narrative work - I don't think there is much of a contest, honestly. I'd go with the 7D.

I have both the 7D and HPX170.
If you were looking for paying gigs, etc - I'd definitely say the HPX, depending on what kind of work you were looking for.
But for narrative work - having both I can tell you it doesn't really occur to me to reach for the HPX anymore - not if it's a short film or something like that.

Just my 2 cents.
 
...You guys are really making me feel good about my recent purchase of the 7D. I'm just having tons of fun trying to figure this thing out.
 
Beeblebrox said:
But most of that is about preferences and preparation. I'm not saying the 7D is without compromises. It certainly is. But so is the HVX. And I'd personally rather live with the limitations of the 7D.
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As would I.

To be clear, however, I think a lot of people get confused as to what "the image" is, and whether "the image" someone is talking about comes from the camera or the camera op. The HVX has greater image quality, I don't think there's much argument there. As a professional camera the HVX also wins in spades. It IS a video camera and was designed to be. The 7D's movie mode that we love is almost an afterthought with giant compromises. Stick a boom mic into the HVX and you have close to all the things a professional crew needs to shoot a movie. A 7D, not so much. I've already invested hundreds into my 7D system (a new lens with IS, ND filters, new sound recorder, etc) to make up just a fraction of what's missing from the HVX.

I think what the real thing some of us are looking for is freedom of composition, which for MOST of here posting in this forum, find the 7D to be better suited for.

And oh, to step off my soapbox and answer the OP's question more directly, I think the 7D would probably be a better choice if you're going as a one-man band or something close to it. And I would suggest a high quality lens (read: pricey) if you're looking to exploit the DOF advantage of the the large sensor. Keep in mind the HVX is a T1.6 camera (possibly F1.4?) almost throughout the range. This means the HVX is about F5.6 equivalent of the 7D throughout its range. To really see the DOF difference you should go with a lens that's F4 or wider (and I would argue at least f2.8, since f4 is only one stop wider than f5.6). I would personally recommend a lens with IS as I've found it indispensable to wrangle in the "micro-jello" from hand held work. Reports on this seem to vary. Definitely an ND filter if you're planning to shoot outdoors for your narratives and you want your shallow DOF. Looks like you're set on the audio department.

If you're going with a significantly sized crew, an HVX begins to look much better. You'll have to really weigh whether that crew is experienced on the set to know if they can take advantage of some of the perks of the HVX. If you are even questioning if they are, then almost certainly the 7D is the better choice. It has been for me with all the small-crew run and gun work I've been doing.
 
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If you're making films with sets and actors and lights, etc., then 100 Zoom H4N's won't help you, but a production mixer will. Sound is 50% of your film Don't cheap out and get a sound guy/gal!

Beeblebrox said:
As it happens, I've recently shot two short films, one with the HVX and the other with a 7D.

For narrative filmmaking, the 7D wins hands down for me. It's smaller. It's less expensive. It shoots better images. Better lens options. Bigger sensor and more DOF options. We were contemplating getting an HVX at one point to replace our DVX, but I'm SO glad we went with the 7D instead.

The sole advantage of the HVX, in my mind, is the codec. Something to keep in mind depending on what you want to do.

For sound, I agree with meauounji that you'll want a Zoom H4N. It's relatively inexpensive and you'll be glad you got it.
Click to expand...
 
I respectfully disagree on your percentage. A camera-mounted mic is good for about 5% of what you might want to shoot - B-roll most specifically. The audio section and control of the HVX is better than the 7D. There is a reason productions have production mixers.

A.

WonJohnSoup said:
Respectfully disagree. I have both the HVX and 7D and the image from the HVX is most definitely better. The real problem is that it isn't as easy to achieve compositional effects like shallow DOF with the HVX as it is with the 7D. Advantages of the HVX include more framerates, built in ND filters (can cost quiet a penny to add to the 7D if you are using seveal lenses), form factor more conducive to planned out narrative shoots, better LCD, better lens control (both the manual zoom rocker and electronic ring right in front of it), much easier to control focus with the ring, built-in audio that works and sounds perfectly fine for 95% of the work out there AND you don't have to spend a lot of time re-syncing things in post, ability to shoot to tape if desired, more monitoring options (zebra readings, audio monitoring, etc), built-in image stabilization, no aliasing, no rolling shutter...

The list goes on. For half my work I use the 7D because of its advantages. But in terms of sheer number of advantages, it clearly goes to the HVX.

Then again, I'm looking to sell my HVX because I need the money. So I could be a little biased :nads:

Seriously though, I would give most every advantage to the HVX. I love my 7D, but I couldn't honestly say it's in the same league as the HVX other than DOF, higher light sensitivity and more mobility.
Click to expand...
 
If by "stick a boom mic into the HVX" you mean the boom mic is connected to a mixer which is operated by a sound guy that sends audio to the camera then yes, you have a more complete crew. There is rarely a reason anyone serious about film would stick a boom mic directly into an HVX. Even if the boom op were close to the camera, which he usually isn't, it's not possible for him to hold the boom AND watch levels on the display (assuming he can see it) AND ride levels when necessary. A boom op should not be touching the camera (in the same way an AC should not be touching the audio recorder).


WonJohnSoup said:
As would I.

To be clear, however, I think a lot of people get confused as to what "the image" is, and whether "the image" someone is talking about comes from the camera or the camera op. The HVX has greater image quality, I don't think there's much argument there. As a professional camera the HVX also wins in spades. It IS a video camera and was designed to be. The 7D's movie mode that we love is almost an afterthought with giant compromises. Stick a boom mic into the HVX and you have close to all the things a professional crew needs to shoot a movie. A 7D, not so much. I've already invested hundreds into my 7D system (a new lens with IS, ND filters, new sound recorder, etc) to make up just a fraction of what's missing from the HVX.

I think what the real thing some of us are looking for is freedom of composition, which for MOST of here posting in this forum, find the 7D to be better suited for.

And oh, to step off my soapbox and answer the OP's question more directly, I think the 7D would probably be a better choice if you're going as a one-man band or something close to it. And I would suggest a high quality lens (read: pricey) if you're looking to exploit the DOF advantage of the the large sensor. Keep in mind the HVX is a T1.6 camera (possibly F1.4?) almost throughout the range. This means the HVX is about F5.6 equivalent of the 7D throughout its range. To really see the DOF difference you should go with a lens that's F4 or wider (and I would argue at least f2.8, since f4 is only one stop wider than f5.6). I would personally recommend a lens with IS as I've found it indispensable to wrangle in the "micro-jello" from hand held work. Reports on this seem to vary. Definitely an ND filter if you're planning to shoot outdoors for your narratives and you want your shallow DOF. Looks like you're set on the audio department.

If you're going with a significantly sized crew, an HVX begins to look much better. You'll have to really weigh whether that crew is experienced on the set to know if they can take advantage of some of the perks of the HVX. If you are even questioning if they are, then almost certainly the 7D is the better choice. It has been for me with all the small-crew run and gun work I've been doing.
Click to expand...
 
Your sound guy will determine which recorder he uses (and, hopefully, it will not be a Zoom H4N). Do you want your sound guy telling you what camera to use?



Beeblebrox said:
For sound, I agree with meauounji that you'll want a Zoom H4N. It's relatively inexpensive and you'll be glad you got it.
Click to expand...
 
It's interesting (and good) to see such a strong argument for the inclusion of a real sound department here!

Cross-genre: If you can budget for it, adanac makes very good points. And sound is a huge part of any cinematographic display (avoided using the word video there because its true for film, too).
 
adanac said:
Your sound guy will determine which recorder he uses (and, hopefully, it will not be a Zoom H4N). Do you want your sound guy telling you what camera to use?
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Yeah we get it. And we hope the grip crew unloads the peewee from the truck instead of making do with PVC pipe and skateboard wheels. And I hope the DP decides to use that set of Arri 6Ks instead of those shoplights from Home Depot.

I think you're under a mistaken impression of what most people here are doing and how.
 
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Michael Olsen said:
It's interesting (and good) to see such a strong argument for the inclusion of a real sound department here!
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I don't think there's any argument. Certainly the sound is often neglected. It requires good equipment, but mostly, like many other things, it requires attention and time.

We'd all love to have an audio dept with a mixer and crew, but that's not always possible. I just used the Zoom H4N on my shoot and couldn't be happier. Obviously the caveat is that you have to put it in the right hands, but if we had to wait until we could get a fully equipped sound dept, we couldn't shoot.
 
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