Canon 1 DC compared with Sony A7r ii and A7s ii

S

stupla

Active member
Hi Folks,

I've got a Canon C300 that I use as my main camera for documentaries and really happy with it. Love the image from it. I also still use a Sony EX1 for filming conferences and talks and really happy with that too.

I use a Canon 7D for b-roll and for stills. I'm looking to upgrade the 7D, for both stills and video.

Even though I've not used 4K before, and don't know if I would have much of a need for it, it seems to make sense to get a 4K camera for video but also something that can take stills.

I've heard great things about the Sony A7S ii and A7R ii but also seen a couple of second hand Canon 1 DC's (still not that cheap though).

Anyone any advice. I've heard nice things about Sony's auto focus in the stills mode and heard/seen the great image from the Canon 1DC. Any advice.

It seems I can get both a Sony A7S ii and and A7R ii for nearly the same price as a new Canon 1 DC! I've also heard about overheating on the Sony's when recording video, that scares me a bit, particularly if I"m using it in live interview situations. Help would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance!!
 
The overheating for RII has been corrected. It's also a great stills cam, especially if you can spring for a Sony lens (the GM series are getting good reviews, noise problem with the 85mm aside). With the external recorder, it's good enough for a narrative, though it's 8-bit out. With Canon lenses, you're pretty much confined to a manual use.

SII is more geared toward video. RII is a real hybrid.
 
Why not get the 1DX Mkii? I can tell you from my own experience as an owner of both the Sony A7Rii and the Canon 1DX Mkii, that the Canon is in a different league from the Sony. Sure the Sony has more resolution, but in every other respect the Canon is far superior. There really is no comparing the two.
 
DLD said:
Different codecs though. What's the ratio of JPEG2000 to XAVC for the same quality? I have seen it's 10:1 to H.264 (which is essentially XAVC).
Click to expand...

Just make sure you're comparing INTRA frame to INTRA frame and not INTRA to LONG GOP.

Had internal ProRes been acceptable in the 1Dc? Well, the size difference when I convert my MJPEG to ProRes is negligible.

That said, I'm hoping to see Canon offering the XC-10 305 Mb/s (for UHD 25p) intra frame codec in the next C100. It's probably the sweetspot.
 
1DC vs. A7 cameras is a completely meaningless comparison IMHO. The A7SII internal XAVC-S just looks like hard-edged video next to the 1DC. It's a very thin codec with Long GOP compression that is really exposed when shooting a complex and constantly changing scene such as a body of water. The A7RII looks a little more filmic internally perhaps because of its downsampling from a higher resolution and both A7 cameras produce better results through an external recorder, but still nowhere near the quality of the 1DC.

In fact, the 1DC delivers images that rival and exceed cameras such as the FS5, FS7, Ursa Min 4.6k, Kinefinity 4K, Red Raven, and Scarlet-W in many instances when it comes to DR, resolving power, ISO/noise performance, and natural skin tones and colors. Its only shortcomings relative to these cameras are functionality (XLRs, internal ND filter, etc.), HFR, rolling shutter, and color bit depth (after all, it is an 8 Bit 4:2:2 camera despite punching far above its weight in terms of color performance). The 1DC just plays in a different league from the A7 cameras. Perhaps a good comparison would be the new $7500 Leica-SL with the option for uncompressed 10 Bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder. These are all the cameras I'm considering after cancelling my Ursa Mini 4.6k order.

In short, the 1DC is an incredible machine and almost too good for being a DSLR. But that same form factor means you can go into locations without arousing any suspicion that you are obtaining cinema-quality 4K footage. The same cannot be said of larger professional cameras. The 1DC is also weather-sealed and fits easily on a gimbal at 3.5 lbs.

But whatever you do, you should never buy a used DSLR like the 1DC. With a cinema camera such as the FS7 or RED Raven/Scarlet-W, the camera itself will remap the sensor and eliminate bad pixels over time. The only way to do that with the 1DC is to send it in for servicing. You also have no idea what the status of the shutter mechanism is or anything else. It's just too risky to buy a used 1DC, especially when they are due to be discounted even more with the 1DX II release and a possible 1DC II around the corner. Factory sealed with a Canon warranty is the only way to go with the 1DC.
 
Last edited:
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself to buy a 1DC, haha.

I had a similar conversation in my head about the 1DX Mark II...and the result...days later...is now I am waiting for UPS today. :shocked:
 
NorBro said:
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself to buy a 1DC, haha.

I had a similar conversation in my head about the 1DX Mark II...and the result...days later...is now I am waiting for UPS today. :shocked:
Click to expand...

Congratulations on your order! I think the 1DX II is a great choice and has the best price to performance ratio. You are really getting two cameras in one: a world-class sports DSLR and a professional video camera with crystal clear 4K60P:




And here is a good example of DR from the same channel as above (this one is uploaded as 1080HD):


I try to resist the 1DC, and I even have a deposit on the Raven, but the 1DC's resolving power,DR, colors, and noise performance just draw me back every time I go on Vimeo and download camera footage. The 1DX II has many of those qualities and, as long as you are very careful with exposure, you will get fantastic results. I'm very much considering the 1DX II as well, but I suspect Canon has a 1DC II up its sleeve. A 1DC with the new 1DX II features would be the best of both worlds and it would easily be my #1 choice of any camera that I listed.
 
AndreeOnline said:
Had internal ProRes been acceptable in the 1Dc? Well, the size difference when I convert my MJPEG to ProRes is negligible.
Click to expand...
Folks who did H.265 to ProRes conversion found Samsung's 80 Mbps equal to 422 Standard at 500 Mbps, giving it about a 6:1 ratio. H265 is about half the rate for H264. XAVC's 100 Mbps would make it about 300 Mbps in ProRes (420?) Light.

That said, I'm hoping to see Canon offering the XC-10 305 Mb/s (for UHD 25p) intra frame codec in the next C100. It's probably the sweetspot.
Click to expand...
That was the hope, if you recall our posts from that long forgotten era of late 2015.
 
I own a sony A7Rii and honestly am not very impressed with the video....but i am comparing it to the other cameras i am used to, red epic and sony FS7...8bit video is 8bit video, sometimes it can look great other times it just shows the limits....
i have looked into the canon 1dxII and while the specs look nice, i don't like the fact that canon obviously neuters the camera on purpose to protect others by not putting in log, which would make the camera so much better....fact just is that canon sensors are now far behind sony's when it comes to DR....everything i have seen from the 1dxII so far clearly shows that....
the 1DC has an even older sensor with limited DR and 8bit....no matter how much magic is happening with log and color, it is still only 8bit.....FS7 is in a different class....
the 1DCII (when it comes out) will probably be the 1DXII with log....for twice the money....not sure how long canon thinks they can keep doing this....at a time when even Red has to adjust to the current market....
IMO the A7RII is the best compact camera out right now....it is not perfect but all in all in terms of features and IQ it is pretty hard to beat...i would not be surprised to see a new A7RIII (the rumors say A9) later this year....even better DR, and very important: double XQD card slots (so the rumors say) and most important: Sony is not afraid to put absolutely everything into their new cameras even if it makes existing ones or more expensive ones look not so good....
 
The FS7 and 1DC are both excellent cameras that can produce beautiful 4K imagery. A 10 bit camera should have a broader color palette than an 8 bit camera and a 12 bit camera will be an even greater difference over 10 bit, so there is no end to that debate--at least, in terms of paper specs. But paper specs mean nothing when looking at the final image. This is where the 1DC really shines with its color fidelity. The FS7 just looks too yellow and off-color in almost everything I have seen. Moreover, its XAVC-I coded is highly compressed and has problems of its own, including banding and artifacting as discussed on this very forum.

It should be noted that the 1DC's dynamic range is by no means "limited" and is truly extraordinary along with its noise performance. As the 1DC photosites are so massive at 6.95 microns (vs. 5-5.5 microns for most cinema cameras), it also has an inherent signal-to-noise advantage over almost everything else of comparable quality including the FS7, the Raven, Scarlet-W, and Ursa Mini 4.6k. There are dozens and dozens of examples of the 1DC's amazing image quality available for download on Vimeo. Here are just a few:



And here is the trailer for the Tales by Light TV series shot on the 1DC by Abraham Joffe for National Geographic Channel:


People forget that the 1DC video mode has an APS-H crop with a large 4K sensor area (27 x 14 mm) that outclasses 4K Super 35mm cameras like the FS7. Ultimately, this larger sensor size translates directly into the 1DC's superior optical performance and resolving power, which are factors that no speedbooster can compensate for in any effective way (as it does not change the size of the photosites).
 
Last edited:
Kinok said:
The FS7 and 1DC are both excellent cameras that can produce beautiful 4K imagery. A 10 bit camera should have a broader color palette than an 8 bit camera and a 12 bit camera will be an even greater difference over 10 bit, so there is no end to that debate--at least, in terms of paper specs. But paper specs mean nothing when looking at the final image. This is where the 1DC really shines with its color fidelity. The FS7 just looks too yellow and off-color in almost everything I have seen. Moreover, its XAVC-I coded is highly compressed and has problems of its own, including banding and artifacting as discussed on this very forum.

It should be noted that the 1DC's dynamic range is by no means "limited" and is truly extraordinary along with its noise performance. As the 1DC photosites are so massive at 6.95 microns (vs. 5-5.5 microns for most cinema cameras), it also has an inherent signal-to-noise advantage over almost everything else of comparable quality including the FS7, the Raven, Scarlet-W, and Ursa Mini 4.6k. There are dozens and dozens of examples of the 1DC's amazing image quality available for download on Vimeo. Here are just a few:



And here is the trailer for the Tales by Light TV series shot on the 1DC by Abraham Joffe for National Geographic Channel:


People forget that the 1DC video mode has an APS-H crop with a large 4K sensor area (27 x 14 mm) that outclasses 4K Super 35mm cameras like the FS7. Ultimately, this larger sensor size translates directly into the 1DC's superior optical performance and resolving power, which are factors that no speedbooster can compensate for in any effective way (as it does not change the size of the photosites).
Click to expand...
arguing which camera provides a subjectively "better" or more pleasing color is pointless.....but 10bit will simply give you much more to work with in post then 8bit....
the FS7 has a higher data rate then the 1DC and the DR of the FS7 sensor is rated much higher.....
 
Regarding touchscreen AF and tracking...I was always skeptical when people said, "It's really that good." or "I'm surprised with how well it worked."

So I'm just going to say:

OMG
 
NorBro said:
Thank you!

Let's hope (for my sake) the 1DCII is a 2017 camera, lol.

This is one of my favorite 1DC videos just looking at the quality (not dynamic range, clipping, etc.)

https://vimeo.com/137428938

Lior Sperandeo's "People of..." series is nice too. Here's one from that collection:

https://vimeo.com/131302295
Click to expand...

I like the People of series as well. It really shows off the 1DC's use as documentary and travel camera. As for the director of the Ugly films, Michael Ori, he recently acquired a 1DX II and has posted a couple of videos with it if you haven't already seem them. I can definitely see why he would reach for that camera over his 1DC for its 4K slow motion capabilities. It does make a difference in terms of broadening the camera's aesthetic possibilities in 4K:


And you have nothing to worry about on the 1DC II. It will be at least a year away and will cost more. Your investment in the 1DX II will be well protected. The 1DC II probably won't even be announced until after the Rio Olympics when everyone has already bought the 1DX II. At that point, Canon will have exhausted the initial sales run and will look to extend the 1D platform's market reach. But it's a very fine balance that companies like Canon and Sony know all too well.

Photokina in September would be the perfect place and time for the 1DC II announcement so that they can maximize the 1DX II's sales run without losing customers like me who are simply waiting for the 1DC II. Based on that timeline, the 1DC II should make some kind of an appearance at NAB 2017 along with a new C500 or something.
 
Last edited:
Some of those demo reels look great but one never knows how many discarded frames that edit entailed. "Great shot? Awesome, it's in! Oops, I effed up the exposure and I can't fix it in post. No problem. I have four hours of footage and all I need is six minutes for Vimeo".

And it says nothing about the camera itself.

BTW, Christopher Doyle took a year to lens "In the mood for love" and the final cut was phenomenal. But, with reels and reels of film, he certainly had his pick of the frame litter.
 
DLD said:
Some of those demo reels look great but one never knows how many discarded frames that edit entailed. "Great shot? Awesome, it's in! Oops, I effed up the exposure and I can't fix it in post. No problem. I have four hours of footage and all I need is six minutes for Vimeo".

And it says nothing about the camera itself.

BTW, Christopher Doyle took a year to lens "In the mood for love" and the final cut was phenomenal. But, with reels and reels of film, he certainly had his pick of the frame litter.
Click to expand...

Well, with RAW files you can always make a slight mistake and fix it in post. At least, I find that is possible on my BMPC-4K. But with an 8 Bit 4:2:2 camera you are going to be limited in what you can do in post. You really need to nail both color balance and exposure. With such a large sensor and shallow depth of field on the 1DC, focus is also more critical than on a Super 35mm format.

Still, I disagree that these demos say nothing about the camera when there are so many examples of amazing 1DC footage. These filmmakers can't all be accomplished cinematographers like Bloom, Joffe, Hurlbut, or Laforet, all of whom have produced outstanding 1DC footage.

The examples of impressive 1DC footage are endless because it has a very special optical and image processing formula that in the right hands becomes a magnificent tool. No tool is perfect for all occasions but the 1DC at 3.5 lbs has a portability and stealth aspect that most 4K cinema cameras with equivalent image quality do not possess. Just imagine all the permits you could avoid with that thing shooting in available light for whatever genre. For example, imagine you need 4K cinema footage from inside a building or area where it might be difficult to get any kind of a permit. With the 1DC and some travelling clothes, you can look just like a tourist.

And your point is well taken on Doyle and Wong Kar-Wai taking a year to shoot In the Mood For Love. I remember when their first big hit Chungking Express came out, which was shot in only a few months. Everyone was raving about Wong Kar-Wai as the "new Godard," which would make Doyle the "new Raoul Coutard." But Godard and Coutard worked very quickly and with lower shooting ratios, and they still managed to produce one masterpiece after another.
 
Last edited:
Paul schefz said:
arguing which camera provides a subjectively "better" or more pleasing color is pointless.....but 10bit will simply give you much more to work with in post then 8bit....
the FS7 has a higher data rate then the 1DC and the DR of the FS7 sensor is rated much higher.....
Click to expand...

Nope. The FS7 has only half the data rate of the 1DC at 24P (240 Mbps vs. 500 Mbps) and a much lower data rate than the 1DX II at 60P (600 Mbps vs 800 Mbps). I thought it was well known that MJPEG produces massive files and is incredibly robust.

What is truly pointless is when that FS7 10 bit file is completely off in its color information. I'd much rather have an 8 Bit file with a high degree of color fidelity than a 10 bit file that is totally off and comes with a highly compressed codec like XAVC-I.

As for DR, the evidence suggests that the 1DC has equal DR to the FS7. The DR of the FS7 sensor in Slog3 has been tested at 12.4 stops exactly, not 14 as Sony advertises:

https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-c300-mark-ii-review-dynamic-range/

The DR of the 1DC in C-Log has been measured at 12.5 stops:

http://www.thehurlblog.com/film-education-online-the-next-gen-in-digital-film-capture-canons-4k-1dc/

In that same article, Shane Hurlbut also discusses the 1DC color space when grading his footage in post:

The contrast ratio feels more like a hill than a cliff. Skin tones are absolutely beautiful. Vitality abounds with the Canon’s sensor and color space. I could care less that it is 8 BIT color. I am getting it very close, and Dave Cole, our colorist at Technicolor, had a huge range to deal with. Canon’s 8 BIT feels like 12 BIT with its color space and reproduction
Click to expand...

Now it's no problem if you prefer the FS7 as it is a much more complete camera for video production and has phenomenal rolling shutter performance as I mentioned, but the idea that it is inherently better than the 1DC in terms of overall image quality is just not true. I've seen amazing footage from both cameras and I even prefer the highlight roll-off of the FS7 and 1DC over that of the Ursa Mini 4.6k 12 Bit RAW footage, for example, which tends to clip too abruptly (once again, proving that a higher bit depth is no guarantee of superior image quality).
 
Last edited:
Kinok said:
Nope. The FS7 has only half the data rate of the 1DC at 24P (240 Mbps vs. 500 Mbps) and a much lower data rate than the 1DX II at 60P (600 Mbps vs 800 Mbps). I thought it was well known that MJPEG produces massive files and is incredibly robust.

What is truly pointless is when that FS7 10 bit file is completely off in its color information. I'd much rather have an 8 Bit file with a high degree of color fidelity than a 10 bit file that is totally off and comes with a highly compressed codec like XAVC-I.

As for DR, the evidence suggests that the 1DC has equal DR to the FS7. The DR of the FS7 sensor in Slog3 has been tested at 12.4 stops exactly, not 14 as Sony advertises:

https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-c300-mark-ii-review-dynamic-range/

The DR of the 1DC in C-Log has been measured at 12.5 stops:

http://www.thehurlblog.com/film-education-online-the-next-gen-in-digital-film-capture-canons-4k-1dc/

In that same article, Shane Hurlbut also discusses the 1DC color space when grading his footage in post:



Now it's no problem if you prefer the FS7 as it is a much more complete camera for video production and has phenomenal rolling shutter performance as I mentioned, but the idea that it is inherently better than the 1DC in terms of overall image quality is just not true. I've seen amazing footage from both cameras and I even prefer the highlight roll-off of the FS7 and 1DC over that of the Ursa Mini 4.6k 12 Bit RAW footage, for example, which tends to clip too abruptly (once again, proving that a higher bit depth is no guarantee of superior image quality).
Click to expand...
DXO marks tests DR on the sensor level and the even 5Diii does not have 12.5 stops DR, the latest 5DS barely has it....highlight roll off is impossible to judge from youtube or vimeo watching and lenses play a big role as well.....i generally like sony color.....
but i believe that it comes down to personal preference anyway, i haven't seen anything shot with the 1DC that would make me choose it over the FS7....i do agree that it generally looks better then A7RII but it is also much more expensive....
btw: i am pretty sure that bloom could have shot these "postcards" on the A7RII and they would not look much different...the grading looks pretty contrasty to me, not saying i don't like it but it hides certain shortcomings....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top